F1, f2, f3, f4..........

Pure

Pure

New Member
As I understand it...unless it's different for reptiles. The result of two non related animals mated together, their babies would be considered F1s. F2s would be that offspring of two siblings bred together or what is usually done is offspring bred to a parent. Keep up the inbreeding and the F number increase with each clutch. I was just wondering how far you can go before genetic defects become unacceptable?

Before you all get your pitch forks and torches out let me explain.

I'm well aware of the side effects from doing this. I also know why sometimes it's necessary. For what I'm wanting to do. This will provide the fastest most stable results.

Now, I need to ask this question because I've never bred reptiles. I've only ever bred fish. With fish as long as you start with an animal with a strong genetic background (little to no inbreeding in the line) you usually don't see defects until F3s, even then you can normally go to F6 before the losses outweigh the gains. I would only ever take it that far if what I was trying to bring out was being particularly difficult. I normally stop at F4 before adding non related genes to that gene pool.

So....how far can you go?
 
Fom what I understand. F1 means babies of wildcaught, then F2 means babies of an F1 generation and so on. As the number increases, you are just further away from wildcaught. I dont think it has to do with inbreeding.
 
insert name here said:
Fom what I understand. F1 means babies of wildcaught, then F2 means babies of an F1 generation and so on. As the number increases, you are just further away from wildcaught. I dont think it has to do with inbreeding.
Click to expand...

I think it goes both ways, just depends on who you are talking too. Least IME.
 
insert name here said:
Fom what I understand. F1 means babies of wildcaught, then F2 means babies of an F1 generation and so on. As the number increases, you are just further away from wildcaught. I dont think it has to do with inbreeding.
Click to expand...



This is how I use it and don't know of anyone who uses it to describe inbreds
 
You chams kids kids kids are gonna look like this

Hick.jpg
 
OK...I'll make sure I don't use it like that. Thanks for clearing that up.

The question still stands.
 
SimonBolivar said:
You chams kids kids kids are gonna look like this
Click to expand...

Nice self portrait, So thanks for contributing to what is supposed to be a discussion.


Kinda makes me wonder about your lineage.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 75

You sure that isn't west VA?
 
I'm typing with one hand because I have 2 big a$$ needles in my left arm ATM. They will be there another 2.5 hrs. So yeah I took a short cut. Granted WV would have been shorter:p

Is West Virginia better. LOL

Ok back to the question at hand....
 
I am not sure of what would happen with multiple generations of inbreeding. I bet you would have more "miscarriages", more early deaths, and possibly mutations. i personally would probably never go past one generation of inbreeding.
 
See, I would think that only going one gen would make what you are trying to get harder to achieve in any reasonable amount of time frame.

It took 5 generations then some out crossing with other fish that were also on their 3rd or 4th gen to produce these. All totaling 1 yr of breeding. If you forgot to change water one week they would die. But they would have been stronger if I had then taken them and mixed them with a close too red gup that that wasn't line bred.
redguppymalenice.jpg


These took almost 4 yrs and many many animals ending up in a blender to produce without line breeding.
doubledarkpurplemoscowtrio.jpg


Common sense tells me that if Chams have that bad of a reaction to crossing more than once..Their gene pool is really really murky.
 
Pure said:
As I understand it...unless it's different for reptiles. The result of two non related animals mated together, their babies would be considered F1s. F2s would be that offspring of two siblings bred together or what is usually done is offspring bred to a parent. Keep up the inbreeding and the F number increase with each clutch.
Click to expand...

This is the correct biology usage. The "F" refers to the filial generation (F1 is the first from the parents, "P".) Somehow the terms are now applied to the number of generations out of the wild but this is not the correct usage.
http://www.biochem.northwestern.edu/holmgren/Glossary/Definitions/Def-F/Filial_generation.html
 
Thanks Kent.

Like I said it really depends on who you talk to. I've seen it both ways, but thought my understanding of it was correct. :D

No thought on what I'm talking about Kent?

I'm kind of getting the feeling that some people don't understand that when you venture into breeding, these things are done. Yes inbreeding only once can cause some deformities to appear. It's a fact of life. But it then become the responsibility of the breeder to cull the weaker individuals, then only breed/inbreed the strongest individual animal again. Then cull the bad ones from the next batch. I have no problems culling. My question more revolves around just how much culling has to happen before the line breeding needs to stop. IE more deformed or weak animals than not.
 
I guess its kind of a grey area,no one wants to put there hands up.
But think of all the "nosy" pardalis forms (island isolated pardalis). There must be thousands of years of "inbreeding" going on,on these tiny islands...
Think about that....

Luke
 
Speaking of the Nosy's, comments here and else were about trying to breed out the red spots. You can't tell me no one has done line breeding to do this.

One thing I've noticed here. Everyone is quick to help until the question involves something regarding breeding. It's like some sort of trade secret. This is the second technically tricky question I've asked and not really gotten any helpful response. I guess multiple Chams will be put to death as I attempt this. What's going to happen is I am going to do this. I will go as far as I can, until finally I will get a clucth that has to be entirly put down.

I was hopeing to avoid doing that, Oh well so be it.
 
Pure said:
Speaking of the Nosy's, comments here and else were about trying to breed out the red spots. You can't tell me no one has done line breeding to do this.

One thing I've noticed here. Everyone is quick to help until the question involves something regarding breeding. It's like some sort of trade secret. This is the second technically tricky question I've asked and not really gotten any helpful response. I guess multiple Chams will be put to death as I attempt this. What's going to happen is I am going to do this. I will go as far as I can, until finally I will get a clucth that has to be entirly put down.

I was hopeing to avoid doing that, Oh well so be it.
Click to expand...

Your totally right mate,Nosy be are not bright blue on nosy be this poly has been achived through selectivly bred animals 100% sure on that one.
It is a tricky question pure,at the end of the day its all down to honesty...lets see what some of the others say;)

Luke
 
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