Hybrid Panther Chameleons

I am a new chameleon owner. I don't breed and would not even consider it for a few more years at the very least. Never the less I have an academic interest in it. I have been reading through a few old threads on this forum and came across several comments on Hybrid Panther Chameleons.

One of the things I commonly came across was that after a few generations of hybridization the hybrids seemed to have health issues. (I believe the exact quote was that the gene-pool weakens significantly in the F-2 generation and beyond".).

I have a basic working knowledge of genetics(especially as it relates to dogs which have had all sorts of issues due to the whole pure breeding thing) and that is the exact opposite of what I would expect to happen (more genetic diversity from crossing different locales would lead to a more diverse gene pool and improved health as more recessive traits get masked... "hybrid vigor".)

Could someone explain to me in terms of genetics why this would happen.

[I cannot but maybe if you called Kammerflage Kreations(they cross breed) they could explain it to you if that is the case. Go on their website and check out their hybrids. They are beautiful! The Kammers are great people and I am sure would answer questions for you. They know first hand because they have the experience with it.
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I remember seeing this as well but, like you, didn't really understand why that would be the case.

it doesnt make alot of sense to me that it would weaken the animal. some of these locales are only a few miles away. im still a firm believer that they cross breed in the wild all the time.....ITS AN ISLAND!!!!!

jcal said:

it doesnt make alot of sense to me that it would weaken the animal. some of these locales are only a few miles away. im still a firm believer that they cross breed in the wild all the time.....ITS AN ISLAND!!!!!

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haha! you make a good point...sex is sex right???

hopefully this will help without me getting my face bitten off. panther chameleons are a genetically sensitive species in the first place. even if a same locale to lcale breeding occurs, every generation, the genes decline and degrade extenssively. wc's and f1's are the way to go for breeding projects. i am personally second guessing if I or anyone at all should breed them in captivity. without all year round natural sunlight and a variety of feeders this species just simply does not want to thrive. veileds are very different from panthers, and are one of the few species of chameleon that do well in captivity. back to the point is, yes they do naturally inter-breed between locales is a certainty. though there are slight differences in the blood pool from locale to locale. they are the same species but the genes are slightly different. some have larger llengths versus girth etc, larger rosrals or split rostrals. so i in return believe that yes hybridizing could much like dogs actuallymake it stronger or brake its genetics. to which side i am unsure. keeping in consideration it is already a genetically weak species i think it may still degrade the further generations.

facelesdoll said:

hopefully this will help without me getting my face bitten off. panther chameleons are a genetically sensitive species in the first place. even if a same locale to lcale breeding occurs, every generation, the genes decline and degrade extenssively. wc's and f1's are the way to go for breeding projects. i am personally second guessing if I or anyone at all should breed them in captivity. without all year round natural sunlight and a variety of feeders this species just simply does not want to thrive. veileds are very different from panthers, and are one of the few species of chameleon that do well in captivity. back to the point is, yes they do naturally inter-breed between locales is a certainty. though there are slight differences in the blood pool from locale to locale. they are the same species but the genes are slightly different. some have larger llengths versus girth etc, larger rosrals or split rostrals. so i in return believe that yes hybridizing could much like dogs actuallymake it stronger or brake its genetics. to which side i am unsure. keeping in consideration it is already a genetically weak species i think it may still degrade the further generations.

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I am curious as to how you have decided they are a "genetically sensitive species". What research are you referring to? All of my Panthers also do well in captivity, as well as the Veileds I would have to say.

facelesdoll said:

hopefully this will help without me getting my face bitten off. panther chameleons are a genetically sensitive species in the first place. even if a same locale to lcale breeding occurs, every generation, the genes decline and degrade extenssively. wc's and f1's are the way to go for breeding projects. i am personally second guessing if I or anyone at all should breed them in captivity. without all year round natural sunlight and a variety of feeders this species just simply does not want to thrive. veileds are very different from panthers, and are one of the few species of chameleon that do well in captivity. back to the point is, yes they do naturally inter-breed between locales is a certainty. though there are slight differences in the blood pool from locale to locale. they are the same species but the genes are slightly different. some have larger llengths versus girth etc, larger rosrals or split rostrals. so i in return believe that yes hybridizing could much like dogs actuallymake it stronger or brake its genetics. to which side i am unsure. keeping in consideration it is already a genetically weak species i think it may still degrade the further generations.

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If you choose not to breed thats your decision. But panthers and many other species of chameleon have been bred in capitivity for multiple generations indoors. The keepers here in the US are actually behind those in Europe in breeding many of the lesser kept species but neverless there have been many species bred into the f2-f3 generation strictly indoors.

While i agree natural sunlight is always the best option its not absolutely necessary to have success in a breeding endeavor.

As for your belief in pardalis being "genetically sensitve". I would have to disagree. At this point there is no scientific explanation why as breeders we have problems after multiple generations of captive offspring. It could be diet or enviromental as easily as it could be genetic. At this point I havent read or heard of any scientific conclusion to that question.

Texas Panther Man said:

The keepers here in the US are actually behind those in Europe in breeding many of the lesser kept species but neverless there have been many species bred into the f2-f3 generation strictly indoors.

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While it may seem like this is the case, I have to disagree. There may not be as many people reproducing the more uncommon species in the US now but that doesn't mean there weren't plenty of successes here already. Of course, if you're talking about the breeding of species that have to be smuggled out of Madagascar or South Africa, it's hard to keep up without a source of wild-caughts here. But, many of the now suspended from trade Malagasy species have been hatched in the US, it's just been a long time.

carol5208 said:

haha! you make a good point...sex is sex right???

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its true. ive tried to use that line a few times...didnt work jk

facelesdoll said:

hopefully this will help without me getting my face bitten off. panther chameleons are a genetically sensitive species in the first place. even if a same locale to lcale breeding occurs, every generation, the genes decline and degrade extenssively. wc's and f1's are the way to go for breeding projects. i am personally second guessing if I or anyone at all should breed them in captivity. without all year round natural sunlight and a variety of feeders this species just simply does not want to thrive. veileds are very different from panthers, and are one of the few species of chameleon that do well in captivity. back to the point is, yes they do naturally inter-breed between locales is a certainty. though there are slight differences in the blood pool from locale to locale. they are the same species but the genes are slightly different. some have larger llengths versus girth etc, larger rosrals or split rostrals. so i in return believe that yes hybridizing could much like dogs actuallymake it stronger or brake its genetics. to which side i am unsure. keeping in consideration it is already a genetically weak species i think it may still degrade the further generations.

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i agree with alot of what you said, and i too was thinking of the comparison of dogs. pure breed dogs are good but each breed has a health concern attached to them. with mutts you usually dont have to worry about breed specific health problems and they are more robust....usually

Im not saying there arent people here in the US working with the lesser known and kept species. But it seems from my research looking online and frequenting this site as well as others that the avg European keeper/breeder has more diversity in their collection than the avg American cham keeper/breeder. There are several factors Im sure that come into play as far as why that is the case. One of those being the smuggling of endangered species into Europe through other countries with lax laws on importation. As you have previously stated Kent.

Because they have access to the animals theyve been able to work with them and have some success. If we had the same access to the same species Im sure there are keepers here who would have the same success in breeding multiple generations.

I have multi-generation hybrids that are healthy
I've had more issues with the pure Nosy Be animals than the crosses between nosy be and Ambilobe.

My chameleons do not go outside, so I can confirm natural sunlight is not necessary.

From what I understand it's not just crosses that have the issue. I believe panthers cannot be bred past f5 successfully without bringing new (wild) blood into the line. I have read that veileds are one of the only chameleon species that can be bred past f5 without wild blood. If I'm imagining that I read that, someone correct me

I believe that is something I read during my Cin days. Has anyone checked into whether a study has been done to see why wc blood is necessary to keep a line viable past f4-f5?

My feeling is that developmental and other problems related to husbandry are blamed on genetics or inbreeding when, in fact, there's essentially zero chance that either are an issue. If you cross breed siblings for many generations (e.g., 10-20 generations) you could see some genetic problems popping up frequently. However, even breeding siblings for a few successive generations is unlikely to create too many problems in most organisms.

Suggestions that crossing F. pardalis color morphs from slightly different regions of Madagascar or that breeding F. pardalis in captivity past a few generations requires wild-collected chameleons simply doesn't make sense genetically. I think these ideas have come more as a result of grasping for straws as to why captive animals weren't doing well, rather than admit that there is a problem with the husbandry.

cj

genetically it does make sence! and based into genetics comes diet. if both parent of a human child pig out on crap they are opening their genetics to change(if 2 people eat so much and become diabetic(type2) their children are more likely to become diabetic than if their parents had not). just like on a genetic level eskimos are prone to diabetes without some sort of whale in their diet! and i could go on.... like i said hybrizing could prove good or bad. but they are genetically different animals. each locale has markers as to what makes them different, and stop saying its just color and pattern. ambanjas surely do have huge rostral horns! st maries are huge bodied! and likewise other VARIATIONS to the GENETICS! im sure in the wild they are all at the same elevation and eat the same exact thing tooo (sarcasm). the genetically sensitive material i mention come from some of the largest class breeders that have worked with panthers for many generations. generation after gen, panther babies lack the vigor and size of previous generations, along with clutch rates on hatching. i didnt say hybridizing is a bad thing, i said it could be, and also said it could be the opposite.

husbandry tortures genetics, suppliments, diet, lighting, etc. like i said unless we can give them exactlly what they have in madagascar, and let the genetically weak offspring die off like in nature( as panthers do at a larger rate of speed than veileds than we will never know.

Um, anything that physically changes the animal during the life of the animal is not genetically given to the offspring...

And what the heck does your post have to do with panthers being a "genetically sensitive species?"

Edit: I'm half Asian and half white. Would you call me good or bad? I'm a hybrid of sorts, and I have genes for two different 'locales' of people. Am I going to be the bad result of crossing? Will I be better genetically? No. I will not be cause there will always be people whose lineage is generally more likely to live longer and thrive better. It's not because I'm a cross, it's because of my inherited genes. My mom could have had me with an Asian man who had similar genetics (in the sense of thriving) and I would still be the same, except full Asian! Crossing affects the physical characteristics of an animal and its genes, but the physical characteristics may not have anything to do with the strength, survival, and general wellbeing of the babies. For example, I am very likely to have high blood pressure, diabetes, depression and/or manic depression, and drug addiction problems. Its not because I'm Asian or Caucasian, it's because of the individual genes of my parents. In certain scenarios I would surely fail to thrive when other people would. My failure to thrive has nothing to do with the fact that my mom is Asian and my dad is Caucasian. The genetic compatibility (for survival) of two animals, regardless of locale, is dependent on individual genes that affect the survival of the animals. Strong fathers and strong mothers do not always have strong babies and weak fathers and weak mothers can have strong babies. Locale does not matter in captivity, it's the combination of their genes that they pass to their children and how compatible those genes are for survival. An ambilobe may mate with another ambilobe and have weak offspring and when that same ambilobe mates with a genetically compatible (again, in the sense of the best genetics for survival) Ambanja, they will have strong, thriving babies.

I'm just throwing down some really really watered down and generalized stuff. There is a lot more to it. It doesn't matter so much in captivity because every animal is raised in such a way that they have extremely higher likely hood to survive. There isn't a whole lot of need for the not so 'good' animals to be weeded out.

diets dont change genetics.....it can however cause diseases like diabetes

and let the genetically weak offspring die off like in nature

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Presumably most trying to breed over multi-generations are trying to pick the healthiest strongest looking for future generations and selling the rest off. It's sort of the same thing as letting the weak die off, only without the death and they get paid for the culling.

My belief is that it has to do with nutrition.

Most breeders who go multi-generation are using limited food variety and usually it amounts to 2 or 3 species of feeder insect, with mostly 1 food item making up the bulk of the diet (crickets for example). Along with that goes a desire to supplement as minimally as possible.

I have wondered for a long time how regular inclusion of a variety of shredded leafy greens and other shredded veggies into the diet of panthers and other chameleons along with regular inclusion of vertebrate items (fuzzy mice for example) would effect multi-generational breeding success when combined with an actual varied diet of invertebrates consisting of several species cultured plus field collected insects in the summer...

I have seen zero evidence that cross breeding would be any more of a problem than "pure" breeding.

For that matter, nowadays I look at some pics of well known breeders ambilobes and the like and wonder how pure they are anyway- they sure don't look like the "pure" imports 15 years ago...

diets dont change genetics.....it can however cause diseases like diabetes

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Unless I am mistaken, I believe diet can change genetics- especially with some of the wacky stuff going on in our human food supply nowadays- especially GMO items can effect you and many of these grain type items are what we feed to our feeder insects. Mice fed one particular GMO grain for example were fine, but their offspring were not. Sorry too lazy to dig for the study.

Google it- scary stuff- most of us are in a feeding trial that could effect us for generations to come and don't even know it.

Here is an excerpt from Yahoo news:

In a small study, the researchers tracked 30 men with low-risk prostate cancer who decided against conventional medical treatment such as surgery and radiation or hormone therapy. The men underwent three months of major lifestyle changes, including eating a diet rich in fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes and soy products, moderate exercise such as walking for half an hour a day, and an hour of daily stress management methods such as meditation.

After the three months, the men had changes in activity in about 500 genes -- including 48 that were turned on and 453 genes that were turned off. The activity of disease-preventing genes increased while a number of disease-promoting genes, including those involved in prostate cancer and breast cancer, shut down, according to the study published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

"It's an exciting finding because so often people say, 'Oh, it's all in my genes, what can I do?' Well, it turns out you may be able to do a lot," Ornish, who is also affiliated with the University of California, San Francisco, said in a telephone interview. "'In just three months, I can change hundreds of my genes simply by changing what I eat and how I live?' That's pretty exciting," Ornish said. "The implications of our study are not limited to men with prostate cancer."

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