Jackson's Cham - Tongue Issues = Nutritional Imbalance?

I have a 1-year old Jackson's chameleon (Ferdinand). Over the past few weeks, I have been noticing issues with the length and accuracy of this tongue strike. His appetite seems fine, but he is definitely having issues catching food. I don't believe it is a tongue injury since it is worsening with time. He is not having issues with his eyes.

From reading up on the forum, it seems like poor little Ferdie likely has a nutritional imbalance, perhaps a combo of Vitamin A, calcium, D3, and B Vitamins could be to blame. I'm not sure exactly what I am doing wrong, so I would like some input from more experienced keepers.

Here is my related husbandry:

Supplementation Schedule:
Repashy SuperCal NoD (3x week)
http://www.amazon.com/SuperCal-Micr...F8&qid=1380306705&sr=8-1&keywords=repashy+NoD
Tetrafauna Reptocal (1x every other week, alternating)
http://www.amazon.com/Tetra-ReptoCa...=UTF8&qid=1380306819&sr=8-1&keywords=reptocal
RepCal Herpavite with Beta Carotene (1x every other week, alternating)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...rd_t=301&pf_rd_p=1263465782&pf_rd_i=herpavite

Gutloading Schedule:
Butternut Squash
Mustard Greens
Oranges, Bananas, Apples, Green Peppers (rotating)

Obviously, I need to make some changes to my husbandry. Here are my thoughts:

1. Provide an engineered gutload (Bug Burger) to the fresh veggies to provide a more nutritionally rounded gutload.
2. Substitute the Herpavite with Beta Carotene with Reptivite with preformed Vitamin A (http://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-Repti...UTF8&qid=1380307628&sr=1-1&keywords=reptivite). I have read a few resources discussing whether chameleons can efficiently convert Beta Carotene into Vitamin A.

Does anyone have any advice? Any thoughts about what I might be doing wrong or what I could do better? Any chance I could be overdosing my little guy on something?

Thanks so much!

Thanks for the info. I know it's something I'm doing, but I'm not exactly sure what. I am kind of suspecting not enough D3. He has a UVB tube light, and it is time to replace the bulb (just turned six months old). I need to get a UV meter.

I'm just not exactly sure what the problem is, and that's my biggest worry.

I'm crazy in love with Ferdie and I want to do everything perfect.

Self-serving bump

Jackson's chams don't need to be supplemented as much as you are... Your plain calcium schedule is correct but the multivitamin and calcium w/d3 should only be once a month. I'm just going off the caresheet for Jackson's, I was even recommended by a forum member not to use calcium with d3 at all because my multivitamin has d3 in it aswell. Correct me if I'm wrong I'm sorry to hear about your Cham that he recovers soon!

I give my Jackson calcium on all feeders with a poor calcium to phosphorus ratio. So if he is eating anything like roaches, crickets, supers etc, it gets dusted with calcium. I use herptivite once a month and I do not use D3 as I use HO UVb bulbs and he goes outside at least 4-6 hours a week. His tongue is strong and accurate. He can tend to shoot it a shorter distance when I hand feed more, and he does sometimes like to go up and bite bugs, but this is usually worms or snails. If he has a day without calcium it is because he is eating feeders that do not require dusting such as snails, butterworms, silk worms etc.

Edit: I also gut load with a dry gutload recipe that contains various ingredients that do not contain D3, as well as a D3 free wet blend. I then also throw in some fresh veggies as well.

Crickets and superworms are the majority of his diet, and those are the feeders that get the plain calcium (no phos, no D3). He also gets silkworms, bb flies, and other miscellaneous bugs that I don't typically dust with anything. He does have a UVB bulb and probably gets 4 hours of real sunshine a week, but not all in one dose.

It's not a matter of his being lazy about hunting. He is having true issues with his tongue: inaccurate shooting and "floppiness". He gets frustrated trying to catch something too; if he can't get it in one or two shots, he gives up. I feel terrible.

Maybe it's an issue of too much supplemental D3 as he is getting enough naturally? I need to start somewhere; this would be an easy one to isolate.

I read another post on her not too long ago that their cham had the same problem and it was a Vit. A problem. I remember they said they got human Vit A and put out a drop or two on feeders and it worked. I will look for the thread and see if I can find it. I am not real good and working this site yet so you might want to look for it too.

Do be careful with vitamin A supplementation as it is one of the fat soluble vitamins that can be overdosed.

pigglett79 said:

Do be careful with vitamin A supplementation as it is one of the fat soluble vitamins that can be overdosed.

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do remeber the thread I was talking about? I could not remeber the details of how much or how often.

I do know that post you're referring to. It makes me a little nervous to try that approach a) because I'm not 100% sure it is a vitamin A issue and b) it would be very easy to accidentally overdose my cham since I don't know what I'm doing.

I brought up the vitamin A issue up since it is often discussed in relation to tongue issues. Honestly, I feel like Ferdie should be getting plenty of Vitamin A based on my gutload (greens and butternut). I suspect it might be an overall imbalance.
I checked my supplements' expiry dates just in case - all good. It could be a D3 excess; that's something that I'm going to investigate.

Thanks for everyone's input so far. I really need to figure this out. I might take Ferdie to the doc to have bloodwork done. Any advice on that?

Update: 1 month

I have changed my gutloading to include Bug Burger for the crix and supers plus fresh greens, squash, and fruits. I also switched from a beta carotene supplement to a Vitamin A supplement that is given on the 1st of the month. The multivitamin has D3, so I have dropped the Ca/D3 dusting entirely.

Ferdinand's tongue seems to be doing better at the 1 month mark, but he does not appear to have recovered full use. The "floppiness" of his tongue seems to have receded, but his strike is still very short. However, he is eating well and has even gotten a little too plump, so I am going to continue down this path another month at least before I explore other options/issues.

Thanks for everyone's help so far. Please jump in if you have any further advise.

Lathis said:

I have changed my gutloading to include Bug Burger for the crix and supers plus fresh greens, squash, and fruits. I also switched from a beta carotene supplement to a Vitamin A supplement that is given on the 1st of the month. The multivitamin has D3, so I have dropped the Ca/D3 dusting entirely.

Ferdinand's tongue seems to be doing better at the 1 month mark, but he does not appear to have recovered full use. The "floppiness" of his tongue seems to have receded, but his strike is still very short. However, he is eating well and has even gotten a little too plump, so I am going to continue down this path another month at least before I explore other options/issues.

Thanks for everyone's help so far. Please jump in if you have any further advise.

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I'm glad to hear that he is improving. If you are using the Reptivite I would up it to twice a month.

jannb said:

I'm glad to hear that he is improving. If you are using the Reptivite I would up it to twice a month.

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I use the herptivite twice a month for my jackson. If you think its a vitamin A issue, repashy sells a vitamin A supplement.

I am using the ZooMed Reptivite with D3. One thing I am checking is whether I was providing too much D3, hence the once a month dosage for now.

I am also a bit concerned about low level, chronic dehydration. I've been experimenting off and on, trying to make a permanent switch from MistKing and dripper to just MistKing. Right now I have eliminated the dripper (again) and am providing a long hand spray in the mornings. Ferds drinks from the mister and his urates are sparkling whites, but he always acts so parched when I hand spray. Humidity is low in the house but frequent mistings and plants keep it better in his enclosure. I'm about to start the humidifier up for the winter, too.

Related question: does anyone dose D3 on seasonal schedules? For example, this summer Ferds got regular sunshine. Not tons, but small exposures often. This winter, he will not have any natural sun exposure, only his UVB lamp. Should I be adjusting D3 dustings with the seasons?

pigglett79 said:

I use the herptivite twice a month for my jackson.

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Most keepers of panthers and veileds recommend a multi vit. twice a month. The Herptivite is a good supplement, it just doesn't have the vit. A.

Lathis said:

I am using ZooMed Reptivite with D3. One thing I am checking is whether I was providing too much D3, hence the once a month dosage.

Relayed question: does anyone dose D3 on seasonal schedules? For example, this summer Ferds got regular sunshine. Not tons, but small exposures often. This winter, he will not have any natural sun exposure, only his UVB lamp. Should I be adjusting D3 dustings with the seasons?

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From the research I have read, proper UVb lighting provides plenty of D3 metabolites. I would not increase the D3 supplements if you have proper lighting. And I did edit my previous post to let you know that repashy has a vitamin A supplement if you think that is the issue. I actually ahve it as I used it when my jackson starting having a short shoot. He still shoots his tongue short, but seem fine otherwise. I stopped using the supplement as adding it once a month didnt seem to make a difference.

Another option would be to get the Reptivite without D3.

You might find these articles from Dr. Alfonso's blog helpful.
http://www.ivanalfonso.com/2011/07/vitamin-a-supplement/
http://www.ivanalfonso.com/2012/09/vitamin-a-deficiencies-strike-again/

jannb said:

Another option would be to get the Reptivite without D3.

You might find these articles from Dr. Alfonso's blog helpful.
http://www.ivanalfonso.com/2011/07/vitamin-a-supplement/
http://www.ivanalfonso.com/2012/09/vitamin-a-deficiencies-strike-again/

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That's a good idea if I do indeed need to use the Reptivite 2x a month but still gives me control of D3. I have only been supplementing with a multivitamin 1x month since I got him, since that is what's recommended on the care sheets here.

I have also read those articles about Vitamin A by Ivan Alfonso. They were a part of the decision to switch from the Herpavite to the Reptivite. Honestly though, I feel like Ferds should have enough Vitamin A in his diet - my fresh gutload has several A-rich staples.

Short of having bloodwork done, I'm shooting in the dark a bit. Since his overall health seems to be fine and there has been some minor improvement, I want to continue on this path of lowering his D3 a bit longer before I jump to something else.

Update: Not quite two months

Ferdinand's tongue issues appear to have receded. His accuracy is back, the hesitation is gone, shot is strong, and extension continues to lengthen.

What I have learned from this is that my gutloading and supplementation were inadequate. I'm still not exactly sure the specific shortcoming (likely, there was more than one), but the changes I made appear to have resolved the issue.

Recap on my changes:

• Switched from a proformed Vit A supplement (Herpavite) to a preformed Vit A supplement (Reptivite) and offer it once month
• Reduced the amount of D3 supplementation to once monthly (included in the Reptivite)
• Stopped freezing gutload fruits/vegetables and instead only offer fresh
• Added a commercial gutload product (Bug Burger) to the gutload rotation

I'm not saying any one of these items is the right answer for everyone with a similar issue; I am just sharing what has worked for me in this particular situation. Thanks to everyone for the great advice and help along the way!