Advanced LED Lighting 102!

[cyberlocc]

Hey, so I have been seeing a lot of posts about LEDs and grow lights, and people wanting to bust out of the normal as of late.

Me and some other members have been exploring some Advanced lighting techniques in a push to bring Chameleon lighting to a new plane. Rather than continuously hijack others threads, I thought it was time we had a place to go with our ramblings, and crazy talk , in our search for the best lighting we can find or build!

WARNING: If you attempt, anything in this thread, construct anything found here, or whatever, you are doing so at your own risk. If you burn your house down, electrocute the cat, catch your cage on fire, or whatever, no one here is responsible. This thread, is for people with an understanding of electrical safety!

As a Precursor there is some lighting terms, you are going to see thrown around a lot. We will go over a few of them, to help you in your comprehending in the thread. Please do not ask what these terms mean, as that means you didn't read this post, and will likely Electrocute your Cat! Seriously though, please familiarize yourself with this stuff, so we do not have to keep explaining the same things, instead of making progress.

Glossary of Terms: (Sources + Further Info can be found in the * Link after every definition,)


Light Spectrum: is the many different wavelengths of energy produced by a light source. Light is measured in nanometers (nm). Each nanometer represents a wavelength of light or band of light energy. Visible light is the part of the spectrum from 380nm to 780nm. *

Nanometer (NM): The nanometre is often used to express dimensions on an atomic scale: the diameter of a helium atom, for example, is about 0.1 nm, and that of a ribosome is about 20 nm. The nanometre is also commonly used to specify the wavelength of electromagnetic radiation near the visible part of the spectrum: visible light ranges from around 400 to 700 nm. *

Color Temperature: color temperature of a light source is the temperature of an ideal black-body radiator that radiates light of a color comparable to that of the light source. *

• Kelvin (K): Color temperature is conventionally expressed in kelvin, using the symbol K, a unit of measure for absolute temperature.
  
  
• Black Body: is an idealized physical body that absorbs all incident electromagnetic radiation, regardless of frequency or angle of incidence.

Lumens (LM): The lumen (symbol: lm) is the SI derived unit of luminous flux, a measure of the total quantity of visible light emitted by a source. *

Lux (LX): The lux (symbol: lx) is the SI derived unit of illuminance and luminous emittance, measuring luminous flux per unit area. It is equal to one lumen per square metre. *

Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR): The amount of light available for photosynthesis, which is light in the 400 to 700 nano-meter(nm) wavelength range. *

Photosynthetically Useable Radiation (PUR): PUR differs from PAR because the basic definition of PAR is any light in a specific frequency range. PUR is the usable portion of PAR, and different photosynthetic species will have a different PUR range to which they respond. *

Photosynthetic Photon Flux (PPF): Measures the total amount of light that is produced by a light source each second. Put another way, PPF tells us how much PAR is emitted by a light source per second. *

Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density (PPFD): Measures the light that actually arrives at the plant or algae. Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density or “PPFD” is a measurement of the amount of light that actually reaches your plants and algae or, as a scientist might say: “the number of photosynthetically active photons that fall on a given surface each second”. *

Daily Light Integral (DLI): Measures the total amount of light that is delivered to a plant every day. The grower can think of DLI as the plant’s daily “dose” of light, though a scientist would probably say DLI is a cumulative measurement of the total number of photons that reach the plants and algae during the daily photoperiod. DLI measures the number of “moles” of photons per square meter per day and is expressed as: mol/m2/d. *

(a cool calculator to convert, any above measurement to DLI - https://curiousplant.com/light-carnivorous-plants-part-2/, calcs near the bottom of the page)


LED (Light Emitting Diode): is a two-lead semiconductor light source. It is a p–n junction diode that emits light when activated. *

Array: LED arrays are assemblies of LED packages or dies that can be built using several methods. Each method hinges on the manner and extent to which the chips themselves are packaged by the LED semiconductor manufacturer. The intensity and uniformity of light output from an array depends upon the method of LED array manufacturing used. *

Types of Arrays *

• COB (Chip On Board): In Chip-on-Board LED Arrays, the bare chip is placed in direct contact with the substrate.

• Packaged LEDs (AKA "LED Array", or Just "Array"): A packaged LED has an optical lens, bonding wire, electrodes, and resin to encapsulate the LED for protection.

Driver: An LED driver is an electrical device which regulates the power to an LED or a string (or strings) of LEDs. An LED driver responds to the changing needs of the LED, or LED circuit, by providing a constant quantity of power to the LED as its electrical properties change with temperature. *

Types of Drivers *

• Constant Current (CC): Constant current LED drivers are designed for a designated range of output voltages and a fixed output current (mA). LEDs that are rated to operate on a constant current driver require a designated supply of current usually specified in milliamps (mA) or amps (A)
  
  
• Constant voltage (CV): Constant voltage drivers are designed for a single direct current (DC) output voltage. Most common constant voltage drivers (or Power Supplies) are 12VDC or 24VDC. An LED light that is rated for constant voltage usually specifies the amount of input voltage it needs to operate correctly.

Luminous Efficacy (L/W): is a measure of how well a light source produces visible light. It is the ratio of luminous flux to power, measured in lumens per watt in the International System of Units (SI). Depending on context, the power can be either the radiant flux of the source's output, or it can be the total power (electric power, chemical energy, or others) consumed by the source. *

Types of LED control

• Pulse-width modulation (PWM): is a modulation process or technique used in most communication systems for encoding the amplitude of a signal right into a pulse width or duration of another signal, usually a carrier signal, for transmission. *
• Analog Output (0-Xv): Hardware interfaces that output non-digital signals *

Optics: Optics are one of the most important elements of an LED luminaire. They shape, focus and mix the light created by the LED light sources into a shape, whether it's a wide flood light, a narrow spot, or an elliptical wall grazer. *

Diffuser: In optics, a diffuser (also called a light diffuser or optical diffuser) is any material that diffuses or scatters light in some manner to transmit soft light. Diffuse light can be easily obtained by reflecting light from a white surface, while more compact diffusers may use translucent material, including ground glass, teflon, holographs, opal glass, and greyed glass. *


Enjoy the thread

 

[cyberlocc]

Sorry to start the thread off, with talks in progress, but as I said I didn't want to keep hijacking lol.

So back story, so you can get some semblance of what is going on without the other thread.

"

Okay, so cheap, bright and easy? Got you.

I am partial to these LEDs. 5600k, 92CRI, extremely good efficiency. If you run them at 50ws (1500ma, 37ish V) they are 160 L/W. Thats almost double the JDs.

http://www.futureelectronics.com/en...=CPCBuyNow&utm_campaign=Octopart_Ext_Referral


The Fresh Fishs, are pretty much the highest CRI LED we have access to with a affordable price. I been told they are 96 or so CRI, 6500k, good COBs, however not as efficient as the Veros. but still more efficient than JD spots.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Lumileds/L2C5-FS001211E1900/?qs=COJyYuYQspuJsqhvp9YOZA==&gclid=Cj0KCQjw3KzdBRDWARIsAIJ8TMTixADxEzHpbOICqi1I8uoQA5vpzP5umufVsGzB8UVUPgrvZJftTrcaAl8FEALw_wcB


Now you have a few sink options, in this case, if your trying to stay cheap and easy, and just run a few COBs, Id go with these.
https://www.rapidled.com/140mm-pin-heatsink/

There is probably some other ways to hang them, but the easy and for them way is here, https://www.rapidled.com/48-canopy-rail/.

Then we would need to find you a PSU, but that will depend, on how many of these you would want, and if you want FF or Veros. Also there is reflector options. You could do, 2 stock (100degree) or you could do 2 90s, per cage. after that, you could add 1 40 in the center to push lower cage par, or just let it fall off naturally, depends what you have down there.

Let me know what ya think, and we can go from there.

Some quick details though, a 46 inch T5HO, puts out 5k lumens across it's lenght. One of those Veros, will put out almost 12k, at middle ground power (148L/W) however it you dial that back to 50ws, they will put out 8300 lumens, (160L/W).

If you want to go cheaper, without losing too much on Electric bill, then 2 Veros should do ya, at 80ws with more light than having a quad 24inch T5 Fixture over that cage (1 LED is eq to 4 24T5s).

If you go FF, you'll need to to compete, and really your doing it for CRI as Flo's are usually in the High 80s, FF I bleieve is 120L/W, not bad, better than a Flos 95, but not great.

About 14 DLI, preferably more reds, as they are more favored for blooming.

So shooting for 350 PAR, or so, at least a foot down from the top of the plant, assuming a 3ft plant.

Easier to measure, he needs about 25k LUX, more is better.

1 of the Veros I linked him earlier, directly above the hibiscus, should be enough for bloom, at 80ws.

Now 25k LUX pails in comparison to the sun, but the sun changes throughout the day, and not all of it's spectrums are good. So you beat that, by Time On, and Spectrum used. 12hours with a good spectrum, will get the DLI needed.

If you start getting into all the flashy dimming and such, the PAR needed increases, as DLI is just the Moles the plant received in a day, the PAR is what MMoles it could receive per second.

That's the problem with flos, they don't put out an insane amount of Red, which is why there CRI is so low. And what they do, doesn't carry far enough. There PAR is not very good, they can produce a good amount of light, they just can't push it far enough down.

You can of course still brute Force it. A plant 6 inches from a Flo, even a high light one will grow very well. And adding more, will also help. 8 24 inch T5s will grow a hibiscus.

Also keep in mind that good ole, Incans have the highest PAR of any artificial light source, it rivals the sun as far as Radiation. So your basking light, being right over the Hibiscus can also help, especially using something like 90 degree halogen flood. Sandwich a good flood like that, with 4 Flo's on either side, should be fairly effective at growing Hibiscuses.



With your current lighting, I would add another 3000k as a Flo not as a LED. You want to steer more towards a 33/66 ratio than a 1/1 for 3000k and 6500k.

Fall daylight, is about 5000k-7000k, spring is like 9-11k.

If you do want to go with 2 of the 3000, and 2 of the 6500k, you should do them season based. That is really the best option, but not alot of people do it as it's a pain.

So you want 2x 6500k orhighero then 1 3000k, for Spring/Summer,

Then go 2x 3000k and 1x 6500k for Fall/Winter.

That's what most the Flo using gardeners of the plants that shall not be talked about do. It gives you a healthy cycle of Grow/Bloom.

That bridglux one is interesting. To bad they don't have one with a bit more even "m" to the wave. A mix of 27h or 30h and the 56g would be great .
View attachment 214489

Atm I do have a reason for sticking to those pool bulbs from Lola's thread. I did some what elude to it in the thread. I mentioned via pm to @Decadancin yesterday what is up there really is enough I feel with how the plants are responding. How ever I have another unexpected response I'm watching but as mentioned not ready to talk publicly about yet in full. The additional bulb is to further see how various things react to the addition/ rearranging of the bulbs.

How ever that bridgelux cob is an interesting one and would probably work great on one of my other cages as a 4 or 5 cob setup. What driver/s would you think on something like that?

"

 

[cyberlocc]

They do have redder lights, it's their standard 29 series.

You mix those with like these https://www.rapidled.com/vero29-3000k-90-cri-b/

The wave depends on the actual COBs used, you can make a pretty high PUR, with mixing them. Alot of the bad plants people use that split, and get good Flower/Veg cycles. With high effiencency.

The L/W isn't as good with the 3000ks(they have a 2700 like that too), but still better than most.

If you can increase the budget a bit, for your reds, this has been crossing my mind for a superior option for reds. https://www.rapidled.com/chilled-logic-100w-puck/

One of those, with 2 of the Veros, should have you set pretty well. And you can manually dim based on season, or however you want to do it.

As for drivers, that depends how you want to do things.

You said, 6, we will go with that.

This should do ya 6, and allows dimming. https://www.rapidled.com/mean-well-hlg-320h-c1400b/

You would want to wire in series with that, which is safer, and that would drive them all at 50ws. 8211 lumens I think it was.

This will do ya 3 at the full 80ws test. https://www.rapidled.com/mean-well-hlg-320h-c2100b/

If you really want to see how your lights are doing. I recommend one of these.

https://www.seneye.com/store/seneye-reef.html,

It's a reef monitoring solution and half the stuff you won't use that's okay. It's also a PAR meter, that is within 5% of the LIs, that cost 10x as much, and is the only that I know of PUR meter in the world currently, and that's why you want it .

It's not cosign corrected though, so holding it straight is a must.

It would be 4 to 5, likely 5, over the cage I'm talking about. I would probably run two 27h or two 30h and three of the 56g. The dimming driver would probably be my choice since I'd have to run two drivers anyway. The cage currently has a sunblaze 46 so I'm not really in a big rush on that one lol. But, I do have a redesign on the list of things to do with that one. The addition of the dedicated 660nm is interesting on that chilled chip. The finnex planted plus having them was the reason I got it when I did for the 20l when I had my planted tanks set up. But, looking at the distribution of the chilled chip vs the 27h, it looks like it doesn't cover the reds as broadly, or as strong, as the 27h or 30h does.

View attachment 214555 View attachment 214556

I did find your plantedtank thread with Jeff from last month where you were planning your build. Only skimmed the thread here and there today but looked like it was worth a more in-depth read when I have time. The couple of things that stuck out that I want to read more into in that was seemed like he was advocating more the fresh series and that the seneye has some issues with programming and a less then desirable sensor compounding issues.

--- End of Backstory ---


Ya he prefers the FF, as he likes the High Par, I for one, prefer the L/W, but both are valid, that's why I added them both here, and will in my build log as well.


The other half to that was a few threads I read and was in on rollitup, I think a few got linked on planted.

The thing of it is, the plants don't need CRI, and the FF stack greens, to get it. And that's wasted spectrum for us, (unless you want perfect rendition) both are definitely valid options.

And yes, the Seneye is wonky, but like I said, and I think Jeff did as well, it's the only one on the market like it, so we really don't have any other options.

There may be something we could DIY, I'm not sure, have to look more in depth about that, and I got alot on my plate already haha. I may look further, after I get to the DIY UVA/UVB meter, might that may be a few months out. I still have to finish my lighting, try to tackle a humidity sensor for the Apex, get the rest of my plants in the cage (which is almost done) so I am pretty swamped lol.

But if you want to tackle the task, I will gladly help where I can , if you need it .


As to the chilled, your right it doesnt, but you have to consider the source haha. That's a rollitup guys project for their community. It grows plants, and it does it well, but it's CRI is garbage and they don't care about looks. It hits the checks it needs to, to get good flowering and nothing more, less ideal in our case, but mixed with the Veros, it's not too bad.

I planned going to the 27s, I like their spread, and adding a couple of 660s likely on the samechannel, likely 2, 2 fixure.

I wanted them on seperate channels, but the stupid VDM for Apex is only 4 channels, and I want a UV channel for the Flo's, as I plan to run them on a true UVB Curve, double 12%s, peaking for a few hours with ramping with the LEDs. I don't really want to drop another hundred on a VDM and tie up a module for 1 channel . Though it will make my Apex coding more elaborate doing the reds on with the WWs, and more difficult for sharing with people without a UVB channel.

You could do like that and add 660s, but then you be in the same boat as me haha, LDDs and no way to mount the dang things.

I still ain't got that licked yet, it's in the back of my mind, and I do some digging every know and then, for when I get there.

It's easier with the Makers Sink, but I hate the way it looks, in my current cage, won't matter it will be hidden. But in future cages the issue may crop up. Plus the price is horrendous for a 20 inch to make the rapids boards work. I need to get that and the diffuser handled soon though, so I can start lighting, after I get the doors on in the next couple weeks.

I broke my snail Viv today so that's going to set me back a week too . I needed a bigger one anyway . I grabbed a 10g from petsense, in lack of a better option, but it won't fit on the bug bookshelf haha. Rekt!

 

[Decadancin]

WARNING: If you attempt, anything in this thread, construct anything found here, or whatever, you are doing so at your own risk. If you burn your house down, electrocute the cat, catch your cage on fire, or whatever, no one here is responsible. This thread, is for people with an understanding of electrical safety!

You just gotta love a thread that has it's own advisory warnings !!! You may need to advise the type of fire extinguishers that should be used with an electrical fire ...

 

[cyberlocc]

You just gotta love a thread that has it's own advisory warnings !!! You may need to advise the type of fire extinguishers that should be used with an electrical fire ...

Cant hit 10k limit .


And I just had to, I mean when I start logging DIY LED building, I dont want a repeat of the cham escape with "Umm I electrocuted my cat and its your fault!"

 

[dshuld]

So after some looking around this weekend a little I can understand looking at the chilled chip to boost reds though I'm still not completely sold on it. I still think the vero 27/ 30h cobs would do a better job getting that deep red when comparing the spectrums of the two. But, since the 27/ 30h cobs are not readily available I get the going this route. I was able to find a Euro site that would sell single cobs but they don't keep them in-stock. The US sites had a min order of 50 and again don't keep them in-stock.

One I found interesting that I don't think you've mentioned but is probably worth looking at to possibly pair off with the verso as a replacement for the 27/ 30h is the luminous cxm-32 gen 3. I didn't spend much time looking at these but looked like they may be worth a little more of gander when I have a chance. https://download.luminus.com/datasheets/Luminus_CXM-32_GEN3_Datasheet.pdf From what I can see they are around $38 a cob though I haven't looked much at specific cob availability. I think it was the "migro" youtube channel that had the independent report numbers on them which sent me in their direction.

 

[cyberlocc]

So after some looking around this weekend a little I can understand looking at the chilled chip to boost reds though I'm still not completely sold on it. I still think the vero 27/ 30h cobs would do a better job getting that deep red when comparing the spectrums of the two. But, since the 27/ 30h cobs are not readily available I get the going this route. I was able to find a Euro site that would sell single cobs but they don't keep them in-stock. The US sites had a min order of 50 and again don't keep them in-stock.

One I found interesting that I don't think you've mentioned but is probably worth looking at to possibly pair off with the verso as a replacement for the 27/ 30h is the luminous cxm-32 gen 3. I didn't spend much time looking at these but looked like they may be worth a little more of gander when I have a chance. https://download.luminus.com/datasheets/Luminus_CXM-32_GEN3_Datasheet.pdf From what I can see they are around $38 a cob though I haven't looked much at specific cob availability. I think it was the "migro" youtube channel that had the independent report numbers on them which sent me in their direction.

Those are pretty neat. 38 a COB is hefty though, and it would be hard to find solder less mounts for those.

You can get the Veros in 2700, and 3000, I will drum them up on mouser gimme a min .

Edit:, the filters not wanting to work with me this morning ha. But they are there, the 2700s anyway, the 3000s are easy, as they are used for grow. Here is 3ks. https://www.rapidled.com/vero29-3000k-90-cri-d/

 

[dshuld]

Those are pretty neat. 38 a COB is hefty though, and it would be hard to find solder less mounts for those.

You can get the Veros in 2700, and 3000, I will drum them up on mouser gimme a min .

Edit:, the filters not wanting to work with me this morning ha. But they are there, the 2700s anyway, the 3000s are easy, as they are used for grow. Here is 3ks. https://www.rapidled.com/vero29-3000k-90-cri-d/

That is the "g" version though I was referencing the "h" version for 97cri. I was also basing it off the $58 price tag on the chilled cob lol. It's between the two pricewise, maintains the better spectrum of the vero but gives more lumens, considerably more if I'm reading properly, then the vero at less cost then the chilled. Am I looking at things wrong?

 

[OldChamKeeper]

So I tried your stuff here but the breakers in my cave couldn't handle it. Lost a cat too. Poor thing screamed bloody murder running around on fire before it gave up the ghost. I want to go back to Vita-lite after this.

 

[dshuld]

@cyberlocc going pm you a link from the "questionable" site when I get back from grabbing lunch. Since you're already a member mind grabbing the pics with the sphere info and charts when you have a chance please?

 

[dshuld]

So seems the cxm 32 is just as if not more elusive as the 27/ 30h so I guess that 86's that one too . I am curious what those pics show from cob kits though because they make the cxm 22 sound like the bees knees of leds in that thread . On paper I'm not seeing anything better then the vero though .

 

[dshuld]

Just for s's and g's, this is what the cxm 22 3500k supposedly looks like which is about what I saw in the linked thread I sent you. I did find a pic of the cxm 22 4000k which showed a bit bluer light then I would've expected from it. So if the cxm 22 3500k3500k really is that bright of a white with as deep of a red spectrum as they show that would an pretty nice pairing with your 5600k vero to pull the reds up without the usual dingy yellow/ orange look.



Vs vero 29 3500k.

 

[Decadancin]

the breakers in my cave couldn't handle it. Lost a cat too.

Well, at least you tried!!!

 

[dshuld]

, just realized you're the one that posted the diy solar meter info on fb I mentioned .

 

[Decadancin]

, just realized you're the one that posted the diy solar meter info on fb I mentioned .

Ha ha ha haaa ...

I didn't expect to be entertained so much while learning !!!

 

[dshuld]

Ha ha ha haaa ...

I didn't expect to be entertained so much while learning !!!

How's that new project coming along Mr?!