Babies separate or together

[Daschmidt]

I'm so confused I read some that say separate them all and some saying keep them in groups. I just separated all my little guys a few days ago and I'm thinking it was too early should I group them back together? I have 17 babies there 2going on 3 weeks old. One we call runt and he is really lethargic sleeps a lot probably won't make it much longer. A few others that seem like there constantly eating and reacting to me when I look at them but I'm really curious after I made them all individual little cubes should I group them back up?

So what's the vote keep them single or housed together?

 

[guanagator]

Once you separate its not advised to reintroduce them, more likely to get dominance behavior and aggression.

 

[cyberlocc]

If you have the space and cages, than separate is best. Most people dont have the space or the cages, so they group them. They just like adults are territorial and solo animals. When they hatch they dip, they do not stay together, they are not parented they go out and live there own life alone. By no means is keeping them in groups better than separate, its acceptable if needed but not ideal.

 

[Daschmidt]

Awesome thanks for the quick response they seem happy and healthy though it was pretty funny watching them sleep together they always seemed to group up at night

 

[cyberlocc]

Awesome thanks for the quick response they seem happy and healthy though it was pretty funny watching them sleep together they always seemed to group up at night View attachment 160127

See this is why you split them. To us that may look cute and nice, however that is a form of bullying. The one on the top is declaring domanince that isn't good.

 

[Fiona's Mom]

Awesome thanks for the quick response they seem happy and healthy though it was pretty funny watching them sleep together they always seemed to group up at night View attachment 160127

Now that is one sweet photo!

 

[cyberlocc]

Also to your cubes. I would add some holes on the bottoms for ventilation upwards. That is a very good idea though, I may have to figure a way to improve on that .

 

[Daschmidt]

Cyberloc thanks a ton for the info. I was wondering why they kept huddling night after night. Well they are separate now. I was wondering if there was enough ventalation in the plastic containers from Home Depot. Also nice thing about them is they are clear was mostly clear and even the fruit flies can't crawl out. you can't tell in the pic but the two containers that I connected together are tiny holes separating them I'll put some more holes in the bottom though just in case. The containers were only 89cents each but this was after I spent $100 and a few hours on another for of housing which I just ended up destroying cause it didn't take to water well.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

Babies raised separately will grow faster and healthier. Even when conditions are set up so they can tolerate being in a group this is not their ideal condition. The group setting is hotly defended because most breeders cannot afford or maintain individual housing. And after saying the animals are first priority and that they get top care you can't then say you compromised in their raising. So group raising transitions from "it can work" to "it is the recommended way".

Yes, group raising can be and often is successful, but it can never be as good as individual raising.

Individual raising is a whole lot more work, though. The only time group raising would be preferable is if all the babies were not getting adequate attention because you didn't have the time to get to them all.

 

[Daschmidt]

Babies raised separately will grow faster and healthier. Even when conditions are set up so they can tolerate being in a group this is not their ideal condition. The group setting is hotly defended because most breeders cannot afford or maintain individual housing. And after saying the animals are first priority and that they get top care you can't then say you compromised in their raising. So group raising transitions from "it can work" to "it is the recommended way".

Yes, group raising can be and often is successful, but it can never be as good as individual raising.

Individual raising is a whole lot more work, though. The only time group raising would be preferable is if all the babies were not getting adequate attention because you didn't have the time to get to them all.

So many thanks for taking the time to educate myself and any others that may be reading this

 

[Daschmidt]

Ok next question similar to the first. I'm keeping them separate physically but do I have to put separation panels between each cube? They are semi clear I'm thinking they might be able to see each other? Is this unacceptable? I can cut up this plastic sheeting I have if anyone thinks this is necessary?

 

[cyberlocc]

Ok next question similar to the first. I'm keeping them separate physically but do I have to put separation panels between each cube? They are semi clear I'm thinking they might be able to see each other? Is this unacceptable? I can cut up this plastic sheeting I have if anyone thinks this is necessary?

I would, might as well. I mean the fact they are separate is better than most do, but separation panels would be best.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

I would, might as well. I mean the fact they are separate is better than most do, but separation panels would be best.

I agree. You have gone through all this work you may as well go the final step and give them visual barriers. It will complete the isolation which is how they fare best. You can achieve this easily by getting Rustoleum spray paint for plastic and making a white wall (paint from the outside!). Just make sure all fumes are gone before using it. Of course, you can use pieces of cardboard, plastic, shade cloth, etc... you can accomplish this in many different ways!


I am working on a Chameleon Breeder Podcast episode on raising up babies and this "double bin clam" is a DIY cage method I am working on a tutorial for because it allows an acceptable maintenance including minimal gradients, drainage, and cleaning. I have used these bins extensively so can say that the system can work well. It takes a lot of work to maintain, but your babies will grow up quicker and healthier. So, although I would hate to steal the thunder of the podcast episode, you need the info right now! The method you choose is a very great one and here are some suggestions as to how to use it most effectively. This info will be in the podcast, but I have personalized it to your situation as shown by the picture above. Remember that even in a small space you still need to create those living gradients of heat, UVB, exposure, and humidity (if possible).

1) I would move the light fixture above them. You can hang them from the shelf above. That way you have your UVB going through the top hole unfiltered by the plastic (is that screen or just open?). I do not know how much that plastic filters the UVB, but your little guys are going to need that UVB. Also there is theory that chameleons are designed to receive UVB from above and that getting it from the side may hurt their eyes. I am not sure how much of this is proven, but it makes sense so until shown otherwise I am doing that in my set-up.

2) The top opening. I would suggest opening up the complete top to allow as much access to the cage interior as possible. You'll need this for your UVB and heat lamp. Hot glue window screen over it so you do not get escapees.

3) Branch network. I would utilize more of that space by hot gluing screen over the top hole and then hot gluing a branch network throughout the space. That way the baby has three dimensions to move about and get closer to the lights or farther away depending on their needs at the moment. Interlace plastic vines to make sure that there are plenty of open areas and shade areas. We would like the babies to spend as much time in the top portion as possible as we want them away from the moist floor which will have poop and, thus, bacteria.

4) Drainage. Drill many very small holes in the bottom of the "cube" for drainage. Then line the shelf with either a plastic liner that is commercially available for that shelf size or else create a liner yourself by using plastic tarp from your home improvement store. Use a small piece of wood, plastic, or anything to lift your cage just a centimeter off the floor so the cage is not sitting in the drainage water.

5) Basking. You should have some sort of basking option for them and producing heat on that small scale without overwhelming them will be a balancing act. One low wattage bulb could service two compartments, but you will have to control the amount of heat by both distance from the compartment and time that it is on. I use a bulb under 30 watts on my Nursery Cage System cages and keep it on for two hours. I adjust the duration depending on the behavior of the babies. If they stay in the heat then I leave it on longer. If they are done after 15 minutes then I know to shorten the duration.

6) Watering. A gentle spray from a hand sprayer should do the job nicely. Beware of hitting the lights with water.

7) Cleaning. The double piece "clam" cage method allows for easy cleaning. If you have created that branch network in the top half so that it is an attractive place for the baby to hang out then cleaning the cage is as easy as lifting the top piece off and putting it on a temporary bottom while you clean the cage out. You could use a different clean bottom each time you do your cleaning to shave some time off the process, but I suggest keeping the same plant per chameleon as to not spread any disease that may pop up. This is a remote situation, but it is always smart to make cleanliness protocols second nature. It will serve us well when we are not electing that we needed it.

8) Feeding. We want to keep the food items off the floor. Make a feeding station that containers you feeder insects as best as possible. A cup with a small piece of fruit in it will remove the fruit flies' desire to escape. For bean beetles and other insects that are hard to contain feed right after cleaning the cage so there is much less that the feeders can get into.

I hope this helps! I extracted this from a rough outline so the details are not fleshed out totally. So ask any questions and those questions will help me make a better episode! You are doing a good thing by putting in all this effort. The work will continue, but you'll definitely see results from your time investment!

Bill

 

[Daschmidt]

I agree. You have gone through all this work you may as well go the final step and give them visual barriers. It will complete the isolation which is how they fare best. You can achieve this easily by getting Rustoleum spray paint for plastic and making a white wall (paint from the outside!). Just make sure all fumes are gone before using it. Of course, you can use pieces of cardboard, plastic, shade cloth, etc... you can accomplish this in many different ways!


I am working on a Chameleon Breeder Podcast episode on raising up babies and this "double bin clam" is a DIY cage method I am working on a tutorial for because it allows an acceptable maintenance including minimal gradients, drainage, and cleaning. I have used these bins extensively so can say that the system can work well. It takes a lot of work to maintain, but your babies will grow up quicker and healthier. So, although I would hate to steal the thunder of the podcast episode, you need the info right now! The method you choose is a very great one and here are some suggestions as to how to use it most effectively. This info will be in the podcast, but I have personalized it to your situation as shown by the picture above. Remember that even in a small space you still need to create those living gradients of heat, UVB, exposure, and humidity (if possible).

1) I would move the light fixture above them. You can hang them from the shelf above. That way you have your UVB going through the top hole unfiltered by the plastic (is that screen or just open?). I do not know how much that plastic filters the UVB, but your little guys are going to need that UVB. Also there is theory that chameleons are designed to receive UVB from above and that getting it from the side may hurt their eyes. I am not sure how much of this is proven, but it makes sense so until shown otherwise I am doing that in my set-up.

2) The top opening. I would suggest opening up the complete top to allow as much access to the cage interior as possible. You'll need this for your UVB and heat lamp. Hot glue window screen over it so you do not get escapees.

3) Branch network. I would utilize more of that space by hot gluing screen over the top hole and then hot gluing a branch network throughout the space. That way the baby has three dimensions to move about and get closer to the lights or farther away depending on their needs at the moment. Interlace plastic vines to make sure that there are plenty of open areas and shade areas. We would like the babies to spend as much time in the top portion as possible as we want them away from the moist floor which will have poop and, thus, bacteria.

4) Drainage. Drill many very small holes in the bottom of the "cube" for drainage. Then line the shelf with either a plastic liner that is commercially available for that shelf size or else create a liner yourself by using plastic tarp from your home improvement store. Use a small piece of wood, plastic, or anything to lift your cage just a centimeter off the floor so the cage is not sitting in the drainage water.

5) Basking. You should have some sort of basking option for them and producing heat on that small scale without overwhelming them will be a balancing act. One low wattage bulb could service two compartments, but you will have to control the amount of heat by both distance from the compartment and time that it is on. I use a bulb under 30 watts on my Nursery Cage System cages and keep it on for two hours. I adjust the duration depending on the behavior of the babies. If they stay in the heat then I leave it on longer. If they are done after 15 minutes then I know to shorten the duration.

6) Watering. A gentle spray from a hand sprayer should do the job nicely. Beware of hitting the lights with water.

7) Cleaning. The double piece "clam" cage method allows for easy cleaning. If you have created that branch network in the top half so that it is an attractive place for the baby to hang out then cleaning the cage is as easy as lifting the top piece off and putting it on a temporary bottom while you clean the cage out. You could use a different clean bottom each time you do your cleaning to shave some time off the process, but I suggest keeping the same plant per chameleon as to not spread any disease that may pop up. This is a remote situation, but it is always smart to make cleanliness protocols second nature. It will serve us well when we are not electing that we needed it.

8) Feeding. We want to keep the food items off the floor. Make a feeding station that containers you feeder insects as best as possible. A cup with a small piece of fruit in it will remove the fruit flies' desire to escape. For bean beetles and other insects that are hard to contain feed right after cleaning the cage so there is much less that the feeders can get into.

I hope this helps! I extracted this from a rough outline so the details are not fleshed out totally. So ask any questions and those questions will help me make a better episode! You are doing a good thing by putting in all this effort. The work will continue, but you'll definitely see results from your time investment!

Bill

First off Bill I want to say tons of thanks and wow your so generous with your wealth of knowledge, suggestions and support. I love the idea on your making my clam shell cubes detachable. I'm going to get home and modify. I think I'm going to drill four holes in the corner of each top bin and hot glue gun four dowl pegs in the bottoms so that I can just place the top bin over the pegs and wala. Also I had the lights like you mentioned at first I moved because it allowed more shelf space but I get your point I'm going to put them back. Also those are just led shop lights from Home Depot. I had read a bunch of posts saying uvb wasn't as important when there babies which honestly suprised me a lot. I was like this is when the little suckers are getting the foundation of the rest of there life started. I'll be buying three 48" uvb bulbs right now. In regards to the screen and opening at top. The reason I did the shape is my router on my Dremel perfectly used the bottom of the bins to make exact shapes so they all looked uniform I guess if I try from the inside I'll get uniformity and bigger hole. I want to leave a little ceiling to glue the screen too. The only other concern I had is with screen in place the misters will get blocked. The mist likes to gather on screen and with an open top it floated brown into each box nicely. I think I'm going to try different ways of getting ventilation in the bottom. I'm going to cut a opening at the bottom of the back wall about 3x3 inches with some screen. I need to find some screen that is small enough to keep the fruit flies in. With all that said thanks again to all those that chimed in its much appreciated.

 

[guanagator]

Great post from Bill, very informative thread I like the half shell idea may be copying that one.

You'll want to get the 5.0s over them asap. Babies definitely need the UVB! Extremely important, their little eyes can be sensitive so distance to bulb may need to be increased if you see them closing eyes during the day.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

UVB is critical for babies. There isn't much room for interpretation on that one unless you are doing 100% dietary D3 which would not be a step up in husbandry.

I like the dowel idea! I drill holes and drop bolts through them to hold the pieces in place... I always love seeing the ways people solve the same problem!

 

[Daschmidt]

Great post from Bill, very informative thread I like the half shell idea may be copying that one.

You'll want to get the 5.0s over them asap. Babies definitely need the UVB! Extremely important, their little eyes can be sensitive so distance to bulb may need to be increased if you see them closing eyes during the day.

I ordered them immediately after I read your first message 3 48" 5.0 UVB bulbs in route

 

[Daschmidt]

UVB is critical for babies. There isn't much room for interpretation on that one unless you are doing 100% dietary D3 which would not be a step up in husbandry.

I like the dowel idea! I drill holes and drop bolts through them to hold the pieces in place... I always love seeing the ways people solve the same problem!

cheers to that