Been thinking ( VERY dangerous!! lol )

[Kazza]

I've just been thinking ( no, it didn't hurt lol ) about bee's pollen and feeding it to feeders.
Is it possible that the bee could've gathered pollen from a flower that's poisonous to chams and would it then be possible for the cham to be poisoned via the bug that ate the pollen?
Just one of them thoughts that i had whilst sitting here in work lol.



Edited because my keyboard can't spell

 

[firecat998]

i would be intrested to know the answer to this question also never thought of that before good thread.

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy,

I think most (all?) bee pollen sold has been collected for human consumption. I'd think that it is pretty safe.

 

[Kazza]

Hi Dave,

Yeah i'd thought about that but what if there's flowers safe for humans but not chams?

I'm dangerous when i get thinking lol, got too much time on my hands at 4am

 

[Creampuff]

Did you know theres a chance that certain spores can get in honey or whatnot to create a very sick human possibly a cham. Like give the person Tetanus cuz the bacteria in the honey is Botulin something or other (I learned this in class). Anywho what if the bee that u got with the pollen from outdoors landed on a pesticide ridden flower or something and that could kill ur cham? Not necessarily the flower pollen. OOO dangerous lol

 

[FaunaBgirl]

While the biochemical process can make some initially "naturally" poisonous componds benign, my alarm is in what might be causing the new "colony collapse" bee disease. The bees are dying outside the hive, therefore, the bee keepers are not aware that anything is going wrong with a hive until it's too late.

 

[Laragail]

Has anyone heard about the bee's "disappearing"?

apparently it's happening all over the US and no one knows why.
screw gold- I say invest in HONEY

 

[Kazza]

I haven't heard about bee's disappearing, could it be the "colony collapse" disease that FaunaBgirl mentioned?

Honey and pollen prices will rocket - hmmmmm, good plan Lara

 

[kinyonga]

Laragail....from what I have read the bees are not only disappearing in the States...its happening over most of the world.

From what I have read/heard the tracheal and varroa mites are part of the cause of the decline in numbers of bees. The varroa mites transmit disease and cause deformities in the bees and shorten their lives.

Africanized bees have also played a part from what I have read.

Pesticides don't help either....and I don't just mean the ones on crops but the ones people spray or have sprayed around their yards too. In this area the town is trying to ban the use of pesticides for non-agricultural areas.

This site talks about one pesticide in particular that has been banned in France due to concern for bees...
http://www.bbka.org.uk/articles/imidacloprid.php

Here in Canada, a friend keeps bees and they also grow herbs. The herbs will not be bought if they have been sprayed with pesticides. Their honey is great and the bees seem to do well.

I searched and couldn't find anything about bee pollen containing anything that would be harmful...I'll try again later. I'd like to know too.

 

[Laragail]

I was thinking that pure raw honey should be okay,
then i found this article --

Honey is a sweet and viscous liquid produced by bees from the nectar of flowers . The flavor and color of the honey is largely determined by the type of flowers from which the nectar is gathered. Common flavors of honey include orange blossom honey, tupelo honey, clover honey, blackberry, and blueberry honey. In Australia, Tasmanian leatherwood honey is considered a delicacy for its unique flavor. Manuka honey from New Zealand is said by some to have more healing properties than other honeys, therefore sells at a premium price.

The main uses of honey are in cooking, baking, spreading on bread or toast, and adding to various beverages such as tea . Because honey is hygroscopic (drawing moisture from the air), a small quantity of honey added to a pastry recipe will prevent it from becoming stale. Raw honey also contains enzymes that help in its digestion, as well as several vitamins and antioxidants. Eating wild honey from your near your home can help build up resistance to hay fever and other pollen allergies.

Honey is, however, not always healthy. Because it is gathered from flowers in the wild, there are certain times and places when the honey produced is highly toxic. Rhododendrons and azaleas have nectar that is highly poisonous to humans although harmless to bees, producing deadly honey. In some areas of the world the hives are emptied immediately after the flowering season and cleaned of any residue to prevent accidental poisoning. Such poison honey is very rarely, if ever, encountered in the United States. The shape of the Azalea flower makes access to nectar difficult for honeybees, and during the time at which Azaleas bloom there are almost always other flowers in bloom that are more appealing to the honeybee.

Honey (as well as other sweeteners) is also potentially extremely dangerous for infants. This is because botulism spores are among the few bacteria that survive in honey. While these spores are harmless to adults, an infant's digestive system is not yet developed enough to destroy them and the spores could potentially cause infant botulism. For this reason, it is advised that neither honey, nor any other sweetener, should be given to children under the age of 18 months.

Honey does not spoil. Because of its high sugar concentration, it kills bacteria by osmotically lysing them. Natural airborne yeasts can not become active in it because the moisture content is too low. Natural, raw, honey varies from 14% to 18% moisture content. As long as the moisture content remains under 18% nothing will grow in honey.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If its too risky to feed it to a small child-- I dont think I would feed it to my chameleon.


However,
Do you think I could put a small plate of honey outside to attract insects and perch my chameleon near by?

 

[Tygerr]

I am in favour of being cautious, but let's remember what we're talking about here. Bee pollen and bee honey are not the same thing.

As far as I can tell, the botulism bacteria that [potentially] causes problems for infants on develops in the honey, in its liquid form. Not in the pollen.

I'm also pretty sure that none of the pollen you buy for human consumption is going to be from azaleas or other poisonous flowers (imagine the scandal!).

And I think that the general wisdom is that if a plant is safe to humans, it's safe to chams. If anything, they would probably tolerate more plant types than we could, because in their natural existence they're exposed to wider variety.

Bottom line: bee pollen has been a recommended ingredient in gutloads from many experienced and recognised sources for a long time now. It is also included in many commercial gutloads. I think that if there were potential problems from it, they would already have surfaced by now.

 

[Creampuff]

Laragail,

Honey is thick heavy and syrup like. Imagine all the insects that come and get stuck in the goop. Lol. At night you can try attracting bugs with net and light. I wouldnt kno tho cuz i live in the city but when i visited my cousins he had a whole bunch of bugs on his screen door while the inside door was open. Light attracts bugs. It was kinda weird cuz you can imagine the whole house covered by bugs just by looking at the screen door. eep :X

 

[Laragail]

I always get a bunch of june bugs on my screen door..

I wonder if they can eat those?

 

[kinyonga]

http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2002/sept2002/nutrition/nutrition_sept_02.html
"What prey do you feed your chameleons? Commercial crickets, I imagine, along with other species such as superworms, waxworms, silkworms and perhaps hornworms, cockroaches, and houseflies. Other prey may include commercial or wild-caught stick insects and mantids, lacewings, May beetles and June bugs, grasshoppers, locusts, katydids, sow bugs and even snails."

 

[studiocham]

And I think that the general wisdom is that if a plant is safe to humans, it's safe to chams. If anything, they would probably tolerate more plant types than we could, because in their natural existence they're exposed to wider variety.

This is a flawed assumption. Humans travel more and eat a wider variety of foods and spices than a chameleon. We have nice, big kidneys. There are many plant-derived drugs that are deemed safe for us that are deadly to other animals. A wild chameleon exists in a finite ecotope consisting of native species and some introduced crop species of plants. Some chams have adapted brilliantly to these introduced plants. Likewise, when chams invade a new environment, the strong will adapt to the foreign pollens and prey. Some will not. They have evolved to tolerate only certain chemicals, and the less tolerant will simply be deselected.

Bottom line: bee pollen has been a recommended ingredient in gutloads from many experienced and recognised sources for a long time now. It is also included in many commercial gutloads. I think that if there were potential problems from it, they would already have surfaced by now.

Indeed, keepers have been dusting prey in fresh pollens, and/or gutloads containing pollens, for years. And, yes, a problem has come to light with bee pollen. Keepers in the USA have run across a serious problem with using North American bee pollens (and gutloads containing pollen) in melleri. The same keepers' other species did fine on the same pollens or gutload. It may even be just a handful of locales or bloodlines that have this sensitivity. It takes years to gather keepers' accounts of any ONE problem in any ONE species, let alone the many species available in the hobby. It may be days or years before another food issue is made public in other species. I'd be cautious about calling any single ingredient or prey item 100% safe across the board for all chams, unless it is direct from your cham's native locale.

Hope that didn't sound snippy, just wanted to let folks know that there can be issues with pollens. This is a young hobby, we are still learning.

 

[Tygerr]

Kristina,

Your response wasn't snippy at all. In fact, you're 100% correct. Everyone involved in this hobby is still learning. And I guess that forums like this are invaluable for helping all of that knowledge gained to be spread to all the other keepers involved in the hobby.

I wasn't aware of that pollen problem for the Melleri. I guess only trial and error will make us aware of all the other intolerances that exist.

 

[DrewNYC]

kinyonga you mentioned snails????

kinyonga

you mentioned snails in your list of chameleon foods, i have put that question out there a few times and got no responce of someone who actually did it. i also have read in certain websites that Jackson's can eat snails but again noone has actually seen it or personaly known about it, do you know for sure? i have been colonizing snails and slugs from last fall. the slugs have done better than the snails. i am afraid of the shell (high clacuim i am sure which is good) but what about the swallowing of sharp shells? cutting their throats?
my female jacksons love the slugs but i have not fed anyone a snail until i got more information.

drew

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."you mentioned snails in your list of chameleon foods"...it isn't MY list its from the article in the site I listed just above the list.

You said..." i have put that question out there a few times and got no responce of someone who actually did it. i also have read in certain websites that Jackson's can eat snails but again noone has actually seen it or personaly known about it, do you know for sure? i have been colonizing snails and slugs from last fall. the slugs have done better than the snails. i am afraid of the shell (high clacuim i am sure which is good) but what about the swallowing of sharp shells? cutting their throats? my female jacksons love the slugs but i have not fed anyone a snail until i got more information"...I have no experience with feeding chameleons snails. Aside from the concern of the shells being sharp, snails carry a lot of parasites. If you were culturing them, then that shouldn't be a problem...but I still don't know about the shells.

Sites that mention snails and chameleons...
http://chameleonsonly.com/feeding.htm
"Some chameleons like small snails but we recommend gut-loading the snails on fresh romaine and other produce for at least 48 hrs. before offering them to your animals. This allows the snail to clear it's gut content of any potentially harmful matter."

Note: Land snails (and NOT water snails which have been associated with trematode infestations in chameleons) can also be used as a food source as many chameleons eat snails in the wild. Their shells are mostly digestible calcium and are pretty thin and brittle as long as they are small enough to feed to your chameleon.
"Note: Land snails (and NOT water snails which have been associated with trematode infestations in chameleons) can also be used as a food source as many chameleons eat snails in the wild. Their shells are mostly digestible calcium and are pretty thin and brittle as long as they are small enough to feed to your chameleon."

If you do a google search for "snails AND chameleons" there are lots of other sites that come up but I didn't have time to look at any of them right now.

Hope this helps!

 

[Tygerr]

Drew,

The last time I proposed snails as a meal (I had collected a large batch of newly hatched snails from the garden), the main concern raised by other keepers was the risk of parasites in the wild-caught snails.
Apparently snails and slugs are rather prolific carriers of parasites.

I would imagine that if you captive-bred them, it may be possible to raise parasite free snails, unless the parasites could be transmitted to the eggs. An expert would have to answer that.

I didn't have any way to test this, so I didn't start a breeding colony. I'm still interested to know if it's possible though, because I have a large supply of snails in summer.

As for their shells, I think if you fed small enough ones, the shells should be soft enough for your cham to handle.
I don't think larger, adult snails would even be an option, because besides the risk of sharp shards on harder shells, I would think that there would be risk of choking if large snails were swallowed whole.