(beginners please read!) please do not buy a veiled chameleon!

[JacksJill]

No offense taken. I appreciate the passion you put into your breeding projects.
I like a lively discussion and that requires different points of view.
Back to the point that Curlytails makes, beginners should make an effort to find well bred chameleons (not inbred) that have been raised with good husbandry and not settle for cheap animals that will only break their hearts and budgets in the long run.
I'm sure we agree on that to the letter.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

No offense taken. I appreciate the passion you put into your breeding projects.
I like a lively discussion and that requires different points of view.
Back to the point that Curlytails makes, beginners should make an effort to find well bred chameleons (not inbred) that have been raised with good husbandry and not settle for cheap animals that will only break their hearts and budgets in the long run.
I'm sure we agree on that to the letter.

Absolutely! You are a treasure and invaluable on this site! Thanks for your many wonderful contributions!

 

[JacksJill]

And you as well.

 

[GreenChameleons]

The gene pool has depleted throughout the years I have guessand I think that people getting imports to spread out the DNA would create a more healthy and resilient chameleon that overall and would be happy to get into it some day. The diseases and parasites are more prevalent in wild caught chameleons in their natural environment but there is some problem with captive bred chameleons as well. I would go catch wild ones and test them for diseases and such if I could. I’m all for a good gene pool and to keep the these animals thriving in the wild and in captivity.

 

[leedragon]

Mine are definitely not!

How did you manage to do that?

 

[jannb]

How did you manage to do that?

My friend (with a larger collection than I have) and I have the parents, grandparents, great grandparent and great, great grandparents. Between the two of us we have a good clean lineage.

 

[leedragon]

My friend (with a larger collection than I have) and I have the parents, grandparents, great grandparent and great, great grandparents. Between the two of us we have a good clean lineage.

Well that´s cool, if you can trace them to the original imports.

 

[Lennoncham]

If it is not ok for my auntie and I, my cousin and I or my niece and I, why the heck would it be OK for my chameleons to limit their gene pool like that and potentially breed pain, suffering and a short sickly life in to their offspring!?

Preposterous! This insanity needs to stop!

I can see it being ok as a last resort when a species is near extinction! For instance when only a few members of the species remain! But we are not there with chameleons so why contribute to their suffering when we know better? And to think we are doing it for our own monetary gain and eastetic pleasure!!! How selfish!

From what I understand about inbreeding it would take multiple generations of inbreeding before it would have and type of genetic effects. So 1 or 2 generations of inbreeding wouldn’t have any I’ll effects. That being said I still wouldn’t do it unless like you said it was an absolute must.

 

[jamest0o0]

Honestly I can't speak on inbreeding too much because I'm not experienced in that field. I'd imagine it's not that great of a thing. That said, I think veileds are suffering due to husbandry in 99% of the cases. Look at every death on here, pretty much every keeper has atrocious husbandry or got the animal from terrible conditions.

 

[Curlytails]

From what I understand about inbreeding it would take multiple generations of inbreeding before it would have and type of genetic effects. So 1 or 2 generations of inbreeding wouldn’t have any I’ll effects. That being said I still wouldn’t do it unless like you said it was an absolute must.

even a couple of generations can create carriers for hereditary diseases. the more heterozygous an animal is the better.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

From what I understand about inbreeding it would take multiple generations of inbreeding before it would have and type of genetic effects. So 1 or 2 generations of inbreeding wouldn’t have any I’ll effects. That being said I still wouldn’t do it unless like you said it was an absolute must.

Do you know of any database that keeps track of Panther chameleons in the USA? (Something like the American Kennel Club)! t
There is not one! I have personally seen and experienced many so called "reputable breeders" selling males and females as unrelated in one spot on the internet while selling the same chameleons as related in another spot! I know of a few people here on the forms that can testify to having been victims of that kind of selfish fraud! Unless you bring in Wild caught Chameleons, you pretty much have no guarantee that inbreeding has not happened many many times! Unless careful lineage was kept by the person selling you the chameleon and unless they are honest! And let's remember it does not take chameleon long to mature to the place where they can procreate! Inbreeding for many Generations can happen in a few short years!

 

[Bigsky]

Inbreeding increases the chances for expression of recessive genes that might be undesirable. On the other hand, these characteristics may lead to something new and unique.

 

[leedragon]

Inbreeding increases the chances for expression of recessive genes that might be undesirable. On the other hand, these characteristics may lead to something new and unique.

Yes but then about reptiles there is an other story. Take for exampel the blue Cayman iguanas their repopulations has been made by just a handfull of individuals, by this time inbreeding has already happen. and there is not signs of any negative effects so far. The hypotesis behind this is that the whole blue Cayman iguans originated from a pregnad female that got into the Island.

 

[CharlesYamaguchi]

There are many breeders who are not reputable and just mash together anything. I breed translucent veileds and if I can not find an appropriately spaced apart mate for one of them, I just will not breed until there is.

That being said, there is much discussion on veileds. There is also someone going around saying anyone breeding veileds has bastard animals that need to be put down which is really a big paint brush to broadly paint everyone with. There ARE a few reputable breeders of veileds who work hard to import from elsewhere or space them out and refuse to line breed. Myself included, Trevor Neufeld to name a few. Pet store veileds though come from those farms that DO mash together anything.

 

[Scottsquatch]

Back when I was big into cornsnakes, there was a registry called the American Cornsnake Registry (ACR). It was basically set up like the AKC. It was pretty cool to go back down the family trees. It was also very handy when wanting to see possible heterozygous Gene's and such. I have been hoping somebody would do something similar for chams, but there are so many species It would be a ton of work for whoever attempts to try it. Perhaps it would work well for Panthers and just a few other of the more popular species.

 

[Remkon]

Yes but then about reptiles there is an other story. Take for exampel the blue Cayman iguanas their repopulations has been made by just a handfull of individuals, by this time inbreeding has already happen. and there is not signs of any negative effects so far. The hypotesis behind this is that the whole blue Cayman iguans originated from a pregnad female that got into the Island.

Since there are reptiles that can reproduce without a mate (parthenogenesis) there are likely whole colonies of reptiles that lead back to 1 single lizard.

I am no biologist but I doubt that the 'need' for genetic diversity in mammals fully applies to reptiles.
But without having any solid scientific evidence on it, I think it's best to avoid inbreeding as much as we can.

 

[tommy]

very interisting stuff. thankyou. now, i'm interested. tommy d

 

[Mrjamwin]

Just got to poke a little fun.