Calcium with VIT.D3
- Thread starter BillGTI
- Start date
Tygerr
Avid Member
Vitamin D3 promotes the absorption of calcium into the bones, as well as helps to regulate the calcium: phosphate balance in the body.
Thus, an amount of vit. D3 is essential to chameleons in the prevention of MBD.
Vitamin D3 is naturally produced in the reptile's body when it is exposed to UVB radiation. The best source of this radiation is from natural sunlight, however UVB lights made specially for keeping reptiles also allow the animals to produce vit. D3 in their skin, and this is the primary reason reptiles are kept under UVB lights.
Vit. D3 can also be administered to chameleons in the form of supplements such as the calcium with D3 that you are referring to. However, supplemented vit. D3 can build up in the reptile's system and actually hinder the calcium absorption process.
So to keep things in balance, vit. D3 is supplemented sparingly. Usually pure calcium (no D3) is dusted with at the majority of dustings, with D3 being used less frequently. The general rule is that if your cham is exposed to natural sunlight, than D3 supplementation should occur less frequently, but if the cham never gets access to sunlight, then slighty more frequent D3 dustings are needed (for instance, babies can get D3 dustings once a week, but adults only twice a month, and adults who are getting regular sunshine down to dustings with D3 only once a month).
Some keepers prefer not to use any supplemented D3 at all, and rather try to increase their chams' exposure to natural, unfiltered sunlight.
Note that: "in studies of iguanas [Bernard et al.], those iguanas receiving Vitamin D3 injections or diet supplements fared less well than those iguanas whose main source of D3 was from ultraviolet radiation." (Calcium metabolism and MBD)
So the summary answer is: yes, you can use calcium with vit. D3, but you should use it sparingly and certainly not at every dusting. Instead, you should be using pure calcium (phosphorus and vitamin free) at most feedings.
Thus, an amount of vit. D3 is essential to chameleons in the prevention of MBD.
Vitamin D3 is naturally produced in the reptile's body when it is exposed to UVB radiation. The best source of this radiation is from natural sunlight, however UVB lights made specially for keeping reptiles also allow the animals to produce vit. D3 in their skin, and this is the primary reason reptiles are kept under UVB lights.
Vit. D3 can also be administered to chameleons in the form of supplements such as the calcium with D3 that you are referring to. However, supplemented vit. D3 can build up in the reptile's system and actually hinder the calcium absorption process.
So to keep things in balance, vit. D3 is supplemented sparingly. Usually pure calcium (no D3) is dusted with at the majority of dustings, with D3 being used less frequently. The general rule is that if your cham is exposed to natural sunlight, than D3 supplementation should occur less frequently, but if the cham never gets access to sunlight, then slighty more frequent D3 dustings are needed (for instance, babies can get D3 dustings once a week, but adults only twice a month, and adults who are getting regular sunshine down to dustings with D3 only once a month).
Some keepers prefer not to use any supplemented D3 at all, and rather try to increase their chams' exposure to natural, unfiltered sunlight.
Note that: "in studies of iguanas [Bernard et al.], those iguanas receiving Vitamin D3 injections or diet supplements fared less well than those iguanas whose main source of D3 was from ultraviolet radiation." (Calcium metabolism and MBD)
So the summary answer is: yes, you can use calcium with vit. D3, but you should use it sparingly and certainly not at every dusting. Instead, you should be using pure calcium (phosphorus and vitamin free) at most feedings.
Tygerr
Avid Member
Those products are perfect, but you should also get the Repcal WITHOUT D3 to use for most of your dustings.
(This one: http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog/reptile-supplies/vitamins-medicines-and-cage-cleaners/-/rep-cal-calcium-without-d3/ - I don't know where the best place to buy it in Canada is)
The other two should be used sparingly (approx. 1-2 times a month, slightly more for babies/juveniles), since they both contain vitamins that can build up to toxic levels in the cham's body (namely vit. D3). Changed to correct myself: Herptivite has NO preformed Vit. A, only beta carotene which cannot cause toxic build-up
(This one: http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog/reptile-supplies/vitamins-medicines-and-cage-cleaners/-/rep-cal-calcium-without-d3/ - I don't know where the best place to buy it in Canada is)
The other two should be used sparingly (approx. 1-2 times a month, slightly more for babies/juveniles), since they both contain vitamins that can build up to toxic levels in the cham's body (namely vit. D3). Changed to correct myself: Herptivite has NO preformed Vit. A, only beta carotene which cannot cause toxic build-up
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Tygerr
Avid Member
I know he would type it up himself if he were here, but since I'm still fooling around on my PC tonight, this is what Kinyonga would say:
The phosphorus free calcium powder he refers to is the Repcal WITHOUT D3,
the vitamins he uses would be the Herptivite,
and the calcium/D3 powder is the Repcal WITH D3 that you already have.
So yes, you need to get all three of them.
The phosphorus free calcium powder he refers to is the Repcal WITHOUT D3,
the vitamins he uses would be the Herptivite,
and the calcium/D3 powder is the Repcal WITH D3 that you already have.
So yes, you need to get all three of them.
Dave Weldon
Avid Member
Howdy,
If you are looking for one-stop shopping then you can still get your calcium without D3 with purchasing Miner-All (O) along with your same first order:
http://www.canadiansilkworms.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=38&products_id=91
If you're feeling up to it ($$$), you can get Miner-All (I) instead of RepCal with D3. The Miner-All products also have certain other minerals added to the calcium to keep the proper balance for calcium with or without D3. You still need Herptivite either way
.
(O) = Outdoors = no D3
(I) = Indoors = with D3
If you are looking for one-stop shopping then you can still get your calcium without D3 with purchasing Miner-All (O) along with your same first order:
http://www.canadiansilkworms.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=38&products_id=91
If you're feeling up to it ($$$), you can get Miner-All (I) instead of RepCal with D3. The Miner-All products also have certain other minerals added to the calcium to keep the proper balance for calcium with or without D3. You still need Herptivite either way
.(O) = Outdoors = no D3
(I) = Indoors = with D3
Will Hayward
New Member
Bill, I personally recommend the Rep-Cal and Miner-All products. You will require for the chameleons, all three of the following. The are to be used in a specific frequency and amount, and this will change depending on the chameleons age, sex, growth, health, food etc. They are as follows;
-Calcium (NO Vitamin D3, NO Phosphorous)
-Calcium with Vitamin D3 (NO Phosphorous)
-Multi-Vitamin Supplement (With Beta Carotene for a Vitamin A)
Calcium, is calcium, simple. Vitamin D3 (weather from a dust, OR from from Ultraviolet B radiation) allows the body to utilize the calcium to full extent. However, there is a balance from providing;
-Calcium & UVB
-Calcium & Vit D3
-Calcium & UVB & Vitamin D3
The difficult part is, there is no definitive guide to supplementing, only individual "What i use, works", and there are many different ways to have a healthy chameleon with good calcium apsorption.
Keep in mind that the Vitamins and calcium should be supplemented separately, just as they are stored separately to prevent cross degradation, this should help the body focus on each as well. Alternatively to the suggested lesser frequency dusting's, it would most likely be best to provide slight more offerings at slightly lesser amounts- though nothing has been documented on this to my knowledge and so everything, everything about dusting, is just theory- though based on somewhat conclusive findings.
There is also the matter of Vitamin A in chameleons, specifically those of the genus Furcifer, who may or may not absorb Beta Carotenes (Natural provitamin A) as efficiently as they would Preformed Vitamin A sources. The difference? Beta Carotene doesn't not build up to excessive (& Dangerous) amounts, whereas Preformed VitA can. So, it would be wise to also experiment with supplementing with a source like Reptivite.
I can hook you up with them at the Expo in Mississauga on the 24th if need be.
Let me know.
-Calcium (NO Vitamin D3, NO Phosphorous)
-Calcium with Vitamin D3 (NO Phosphorous)
-Multi-Vitamin Supplement (With Beta Carotene for a Vitamin A)
Calcium, is calcium, simple. Vitamin D3 (weather from a dust, OR from from Ultraviolet B radiation) allows the body to utilize the calcium to full extent. However, there is a balance from providing;
-Calcium & UVB
-Calcium & Vit D3
-Calcium & UVB & Vitamin D3
The difficult part is, there is no definitive guide to supplementing, only individual "What i use, works", and there are many different ways to have a healthy chameleon with good calcium apsorption.
Keep in mind that the Vitamins and calcium should be supplemented separately, just as they are stored separately to prevent cross degradation, this should help the body focus on each as well. Alternatively to the suggested lesser frequency dusting's, it would most likely be best to provide slight more offerings at slightly lesser amounts- though nothing has been documented on this to my knowledge and so everything, everything about dusting, is just theory- though based on somewhat conclusive findings.
There is also the matter of Vitamin A in chameleons, specifically those of the genus Furcifer, who may or may not absorb Beta Carotenes (Natural provitamin A) as efficiently as they would Preformed Vitamin A sources. The difference? Beta Carotene doesn't not build up to excessive (& Dangerous) amounts, whereas Preformed VitA can. So, it would be wise to also experiment with supplementing with a source like Reptivite.
I can hook you up with them at the Expo in Mississauga on the 24th if need be.
Let me know.
Thanks for all the informationg really helps me understand more. So i will grab what ever i need from you then because i will definity be going to the missisauga expo, So i will see you there
And also, Would you guys recomend a mister? I mist my cham 3 times a day. Usualy she runs up to the bottle and drinks straight from the sprayer i use and when i leave for school i leave 2 ice cubes on top of her mesh cage so they drip onto her leaves and she can get some more water from there.
And also, Would you guys recomend a mister? I mist my cham 3 times a day. Usualy she runs up to the bottle and drinks straight from the sprayer i use and when i leave for school i leave 2 ice cubes on top of her mesh cage so they drip onto her leaves and she can get some more water from there.
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Tygerr
Avid Member
What do you mean by 'recommend a mister'? Do you mean a misting system? What sort of spray bottle do you currently use to mist your cham?
Also, don't use the ice cubes. The water that melts off is too cold for them to drink. Rather poke a tiny hole in the bottom of a plastic cup and fill that with warmer water every day (or better yet, buy a dripper that has a flow control valve to control the rate of dripping, or even make it yourself from cheap garden drip-irrigation supplies).
Also, don't use the ice cubes. The water that melts off is too cold for them to drink. Rather poke a tiny hole in the bottom of a plastic cup and fill that with warmer water every day (or better yet, buy a dripper that has a flow control valve to control the rate of dripping, or even make it yourself from cheap garden drip-irrigation supplies).
Will Hayward
New Member
Ideally, automatic misting systems are the way to go, for one chameleon or for 50 chameleons. They represent the most effective means of providing humidity, and most importantly fairly natural-like drinking opportunities for these creatures who are not so adaptable to captivity. Either a pump from a reservoir to a misting nozzle mounted atop the cage, or from the tap directly to a nozzle, there are many means of installing simple or complicated systems on your own with varying uses and differences.
Aside from that choice, garden sprayers are fairly effective, as are the smaller "pump-pump-pump-misssssssssst" hand held units. The ones that are like cleaning products bottles that shoot with each trigger pull, are less than effective to provide complete hydration and humidity- but are handy little tools for a quick spirts here or there.
Aside from that choice, garden sprayers are fairly effective, as are the smaller "pump-pump-pump-misssssssssst" hand held units. The ones that are like cleaning products bottles that shoot with each trigger pull, are less than effective to provide complete hydration and humidity- but are handy little tools for a quick spirts here or there.
Thanks Tygerr for posting that in my absence! (BTW...it doesn't affect the information posted...but...kinyonga is a she!! Funny how some "handles" sound like they should be masculine or feminine, eh??)
BillGTI...please be aware that D3 from supplements can build up in the system too...so don't overdo it. Excess vitamin A from preformed sources can also keep the vitamin D3 from doing its job and lead to MBD.
Here are some sites that you might be interested in reading...
http://adcham.com/
http://www.chameleonnews.com/
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/skintests.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html
Funny how some "handles" sound like they should be masculine or feminine, eh??)BillGTI...please be aware that D3 from supplements can build up in the system too...so don't overdo it. Excess vitamin A from preformed sources can also keep the vitamin D3 from doing its job and lead to MBD.
Here are some sites that you might be interested in reading...
http://adcham.com/
http://www.chameleonnews.com/
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/skintests.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html
Will Hayward
New Member
Hehe, Ive been bugging Brad (Admin) to install a feature to allow people to designate their sex (or choose to hide it) at the part above each post where your name is. Hes been reluctant I think, send him a PM to get him riled up about it for me!
Tygerr
Avid Member
Will... I think she likes her secret identity! Even if you gave her the option to specify her gender, she wouldn't reveal it... Very chameleon-like...
Kinyonga... I don't speak Swahili, my knowledge of it is limited to my studies of African folklore.
It's interesting how the chameleon has always been depicted as quite a feared, evil creature in African mythology.
The predominant language in my country is Zulu, and in Zulu the chameleon is known as unwabu, which means 'the one who moves lazily' - in a nutshell, the Zulu mythology blames the chameleon for man's mortality. I'll have to post a separate thread detailing more of the stories.
In Afrikaans, another one of our native languages (that is actually a derivative of Dutch), the chameleon is called 'verkleurmannetjie' which means 'colour-changing little man'. Afrikaans words are usually very descriptive, and in a way poetic.
Kinyonga... I don't speak Swahili, my knowledge of it is limited to my studies of African folklore.
It's interesting how the chameleon has always been depicted as quite a feared, evil creature in African mythology.
The predominant language in my country is Zulu, and in Zulu the chameleon is known as unwabu, which means 'the one who moves lazily' - in a nutshell, the Zulu mythology blames the chameleon for man's mortality. I'll have to post a separate thread detailing more of the stories.
In Afrikaans, another one of our native languages (that is actually a derivative of Dutch), the chameleon is called 'verkleurmannetjie' which means 'colour-changing little man'. Afrikaans words are usually very descriptive, and in a way poetic.
Thanks for the information about the languages. I knew that Afrikaans was derived from Dutch and spoken in some areas of S. Africa....but Africa has quite a few languages and I don't know which are spoken where.
Tygerr said..."Will... I think she likes her secret identity! Even if you gave her the option to specify her gender, she wouldn't reveal it... Very chameleon-like..."...a little mystery in life is often good!
Tygerr said..."the Zulu mythology blames the chameleon for man's mortality"...I have read a few that talk about chameleons in negative ways. I named one of my chameleon's Unkulunkulu quite a while ago based on the story you are referring to, of the diety/god (genderless in some areas, male in others) of the same name who sent a chameleon out to spread the message of eternal life....but the chameleon got there after the lizard who spread the message of death.
Tygerr said..."Will... I think she likes her secret identity! Even if you gave her the option to specify her gender, she wouldn't reveal it... Very chameleon-like..."...a little mystery in life is often good!
Tygerr said..."the Zulu mythology blames the chameleon for man's mortality"...I have read a few that talk about chameleons in negative ways. I named one of my chameleon's Unkulunkulu quite a while ago based on the story you are referring to, of the diety/god (genderless in some areas, male in others) of the same name who sent a chameleon out to spread the message of eternal life....but the chameleon got there after the lizard who spread the message of death.
Tygerr
Avid Member
Yes... Ukulunkulu is a Zulu word.
We actually have 11 official languages in South Africa alone! Apart from English, none of those languages are spoken (officially) in any other countries in Africa. It's a real melting pot down here.
Oh, and in case you were wondering, we don't actually have to learn all of those languages at school, but most South Africans are at least tri-lingual (usually English and Afrikaans - the official languages of the old government - and one or more African languages).
We actually have 11 official languages in South Africa alone! Apart from English, none of those languages are spoken (officially) in any other countries in Africa. It's a real melting pot down here.
Oh, and in case you were wondering, we don't actually have to learn all of those languages at school, but most South Africans are at least tri-lingual (usually English and Afrikaans - the official languages of the old government - and one or more African languages).
MrSideliner
New Member
Verkleurmannetjie is 'n baie beskrywende woord haha
Nog a Suid Afrikaner
Nog a Suid Afrikaner
