Can Feeder Insect Diets Contribute To Gout In Reptiles?

[Allen Repashy]

Hey everyone,

I recently joined the forums to reply to another thread and thought I would share a recent article I wrote that Chameleon keepers might find interesting if they are using Roaches for feeders. Gout is definitely an issue that turns it's ugly head in the Chameleon world. If my theory pans out, it could be a significant finding worth taking note of.

Here is the article: http://www.store.repashy.com/can-feeder-insect-diets-contribute-to-gout-in-reptiles.html

 

[jannb]

Thank you so much for sharing this important info and link with us.

 

[Symbiot]

Great informative article and an interesting read.

 

[Kent67]

Very nice to see you here and thanks for sharing your article with us. Although I hadn't heard of any results, I was definitely beginning to wonder what effect(s) high-roach diets would have on chameleons compared to years past.

 

[laurie]

Hello and welcome, thanks for providing "food for thought". I am looking forward to hearing you speak at the symposium in FL.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Hey Allen,

Interesting read. Definitely makes a lot of sense.

On a similar topic, have you done any research or have any insights on the effects of diets high in animal based proteins rather than vegetable based proteins, particularly in reference to gout and renal failure? Feeding herbivores diets high in animal protein rather than vegetable protein is considered by many to be a leading cause of gout. It seems logical that a balance between animal and vegetable proteins is needed in omnivorous animals and that too much animal protein in their diet could cause similar ailments. With insectivores, it seems to me that insect prey items would have a lower concentration of animal protein than vertebrate prey items and you would similarly want to have a balance between the two forms of protein.

With specific regard to chameleons, I've always felt that they are particularly prone to the chronic suboptimum hydration issues you noted in your article and that for this reason in particular, providing diets too rich in animal based protein should be avoided. A lot of people like to provide pinkies, etc., as occasional treats for their larger chameleons but its always recommended to do so sparingly. Do you have any thoughts on this?

Chris

 

[JohnnyD]

Great information. The next thing that would be great to know is how long the acid is stored after the diet is changed to a chameleon healthy mix. Days, weeks, months, or does it never go away. Assuming that the roaches are able to utilize the stored uric acid as a future protein source, the amount stored should be controllable by feeding them a diet with less protein than they need, causing them to use their protein (uric acid) reserves before feeding them off.

 

[Allen Repashy]

I do believe that somewhere in the references I read that depending on the amount of Uric Acid, it would take a week to two for them to purge it if they were starved. I would imagine this period could be longer if you reduced protein levels and did not starve them for a while. I will see if I can find it, but don't panic and go tossing out your roach colony anytime soon Unless you are experiencing issues of Gout in your herps, it probably isn't important at all, but might be worth making the adjustment to a lower protein feed for insurance purposes.

The real question is how these levels of Uric Acid are dealt with when injested in dietary form by your herp... Do they just digest it and make it a non issue, or does it go straight into the blood..... questions I can't answer.

 

[seanUTD]

Hey Allen,

Interesting read. Definitely makes a lot of sense.

On a similar topic, have you done any research or have any insights on the effects of diets high in animal based proteins rather than vegetable based proteins, particularly in reference to gout and renal failure? Feeding herbivores diets high in animal protein rather than vegetable protein is considered by many to be a leading cause of gout. It seems logical that a balance between animal and vegetable proteins is needed in omnivorous animals and that too much animal protein in their diet could cause similar ailments. With insectivores, it seems to me that insect prey items would have a lower concentration of animal protein than vertebrate prey items and you would similarly want to have a balance between the two forms of protein.

With specific regard to chameleons, I've always felt that they are particularly prone to the chronic suboptimum hydration issues you noted in your article and that for this reason in particular, providing diets too rich in animal based protein should be avoided. A lot of people like to provide pinkies, etc., as occasional treats for their larger chameleons but its always recommended to do so sparingly. Do you have any thoughts on this?

Chris

I would REALLY like to see more research on this topic... It seems especially when it does come to feeders like roaches that need more protein to grow and breed it would be very beneficial to find a way to simulate the benefits towards growth and breeding in roaches without actually providing the animal proteins recommended to stimulate colony growth... When it comes to what you, Chris are saying about certain prey items like pinkies and lizards, from what I have read it seems that in the wild, these would be items they may come across (obviously not pinkies, but animals in general). I would LOVE to see research on the difference between how the WC animals or still wild animals bodies react to the higher levels of animal proteins and the effects of the raised levels in CB animals... Do you guys think there would be a difference in that or would the bodies react the same? I say this because it seems especially with other parts of a chameleons health, being CB seems to change everything internally like the amount of calcium and so on... Just curious

 

[sandrachameleon]

Thanks for sharing your link. Makes a good deal of sense to me.
Also makes me feel reassured about my plant-based cricket and roach feeding regime.

 

[Allen Repashy]

Hi Chris,

I am a little unsure if your question is about feeding feeders high levels of animal protein, or feeding herps high amounts of animal protein directly.

Can you clarify?

I look at protein as a chain of individual amino acids, and there are several notable differences between animal proteins and plant proteins.

First, is the balance. but the differences from one animal protein source to another can have a completely different amino acid profile. The same thing happens when we compare various plant proteins together.

We also have important amino acids such as Taurine, which are called "free amino acids" meaning they do not get stuck in the protein chain.

I think it is important we understand the difference between amino acids and protein while we are on the subject.

As I understand it, the body has an attraction to some amino acids over others.... but a protein is a chain of amino acids linked together, so the body can't take in one amino acid without sucking in the whole chain. If we provide the body with all the amino acids it needs in free forms, the body will suck up all the ones it likes best and leave the others on the table, even though they are essential...... Kind of like a kid at a table full of candy and broccoli

So most of our amino acids come as protein, but some like Taurine, are "free" and not bound to a protein chain.

Anyways, I am off track a bit. What I am getting at is when you break it down, plant and animal proteins both contain the same essential amino acids, but they are bound together in different balances. So for me, the difference between plant protein and animal protein is looked at as how differently are these amino acids balanced.

Another significant difference between plant and animal protein is that plant proteins can contain inhibitors such as those found in Soy, which actually can prevent absorption of certain amino acids in the chain (trypsin inhibitor for example)

I think that more important than the source of protein is the total combined amino acid profile. For example, I use whey protein in my gecko diet and it is considered the gold standard as far as bio availability.... compared to egg.... but again, there are even more differences in how quickly a body can break down certain proteins and utilize them.....

You can combine a blend of pea protein and rice protein and get an amino acid profile darn near as good as Whey protein, but from a plant source...

Taurine, as I mentioned, is a free amino acid not found in plant protein and it is a REALLY important amino acid for carnivores and Insectivores (it also is found in insects). This, and Retinol, are the two reasons you can't feed cats a Vegan diet.

Anyways, I think I had too much caffeine this morning because I am not sure I even answered your question LOL.

In a nutshell, I think that hydration and temperature are probably more important than protein type....... but animals protein sources also bring in other nutrients to the picture, such as lots of lipids, which could have their own effects. I personally think, the AMOUNT of protein is more important than whether it is of plant or animal origin. Who knows, it may come down to High protein levels in insect diet and the Uric Acid content of our feeders fed a high protein diet that is the most responsible for occurrences of gout....

Not knowing for sure, I think as you point out, a good balance is probably the best approach.

As far as feeding insects goes, I think the real issue is the amount of protein in the diet, and not the source, but adding any animal protein will quickly get us up to levels that I don't think are good at this point. I don't see any logical reason to have animal protein in an insect diet when we only need 12% or so.

Allen

 

[Allen Repashy]

I would REALLY like to see more research on this topic... It seems especially when it does come to feeders like roaches that need more protein to grow and breed it would be very beneficial to find a way to simulate the benefits towards growth and breeding in roaches without actually providing the animal proteins recommended to stimulate colony growth...

I think this is a misconception because research shows that roaches don't need high protein to grow and breed at all. They might be a little slower on a low protein diet, but once your colony is established, this is irrelevant.

 

[clarkrw3]

I think this is a misconception because research shows that roaches don't need high protein to grow and breed at all. They might be a little slower on a low protein diet, but once your colony is established, this is irrelevant.

I have two roach colonies currently and have been growing them on cricket crack (which isn't high protein) and my own blend of fruits/greens/veggies basically really high end gutloading food and NO HEAT just keeping them in the cham room which is 75-78 during the day and 68-70 at night and I can tell you it almost scares me how fast they are growing

 

[seanUTD]

Hmm interesting... I wish my chams liked roaches or else I would try different theories out myself lol... Thanks for the info

 

[Aminah Undone]

I just wanted to say WELCOME to the forum ..and my bugs (feeders and pets) absolutely LOVE the Bug Burger! Thank you for putting that product out!

 

[Creature13]

Side note here too... I use the Bug Burger and Calcium Plus. GREAT STUFF!!