Catching and Selling Jacksons in Oahu, HI.

[CHAMELEON_BREEZE]

Hey! I live in Oahu, HI, I'm thinking of catching Jacksons Chameleons for a profit. First of all, what are some places on Oahu that have lots of Jacksons. Second, is it legal to sell wild caught Jacksons in Hawaii? I'm planning on catching several Jacksons and selling them through Craigslist, OR selling them to a pet store. Also, how much can I sell each Jackson for? I see a lot on Craigslist under $30.

Thank you!

 

[Chameleon Mike]

This forum is for people who care for the chameleons, want to take care of them, and do what's best for them. I'm not sure if you're going to get much help here if you're only concern is turning a buck.
Catching wild caught chameleons may have parasites or other health issues.
You're not doing the chameleons or the people you sell to any kind of justice.

If you start from scratch, raise them, care for them, learn about the needs of the chameleons, breed them and try to establish yourself as a breeder I'm sure it would be a different story.

It's not about making a profit.

 

[CHAMELEON_BREEZE]

Okay, I might try other ways to make money. I actually have kept Jacksons before, BTW. I've since moved on to aquariums.

Thank you!

 

[Dave85731]

It’s illegal for Jackson’s to leave the islands sux tho... and there’s nothing wrong with wild caught that’s how you keep Fresh blood coming in some people don’t know how to act on here

 

[Brodybreaux25]

This forum is for people who care for the chameleons, want to take care of them, and do what's best for them. I'm not sure if you're going to get much help here if you're only concern is turning a buck.
Catching wild caught chameleons may have parasites or other health issues.
You're not doing the chameleons or the people you sell to any kind of justice.

If you start from scratch, raise them, care for them, learn about the needs of the chameleons, breed them and try to establish yourself as a breeder I'm sure it would be a different story.

It's not about making a profit.

Well said!

 

[Graves923]

I dont recommend catching WC for profit... In Florida there is a black market for wild veiled chameleons and those people will shoot at anyone they think is trying to collect chameleons from their "territory". Its often called chameleon ranching. Not sure if similar activity goes on in Hawaii but its possible.

 

[jamest0o0]

The majority of people should only buy WC if they plan to responsibly breed JMO...

On the other hand, It's kinda goofy to say it's not about money. Of course it is... and that's a good thing, as long as it's done the right way. Some of the best breeders around make a living breeding. Of course that's not the original motivator though.

 

[salty dog]

There is a certain amount of heart thats necessary to maintain a healthy chameleon, they are needy!! Turning a quick dollar does not require anything except the lust or requirement for money

 

[Calummaty Jane]

It’s illegal for Jackson’s to leave the islands sux tho... and there’s nothing wrong with wild caught that’s how you keep Fresh blood coming in some people don’t know how to act on here

Yeah, butisn't the Hawaiian population all inbred since they descend from a small founder population of reptile store escapees?

 

[Dave85731]

No they were brought in from Kenya back in like the 70s now they’re considering them as pests like roaches Lol

 

[Calummaty Jane]

No they were brought in from Kenya back in like the 70s now they’re considering them as pests like roaches Lol

I'm just going off of Bill Strand's interview with Petr Necas in episode 83 of the Chameleon Breeder podcast.

I will say that is pretty common for feral populations tend to have issues related to genetic bottlenecking, regardless of how large the population may get, so hypocardial myopathy is a more common problem among American Shorthairs (which includes most housecats in n. America) and related cat breeds than in cats in Eurasia.

 

[Carlton]

No they were brought in from Kenya back in like the 70s now they’re considering them as pests like roaches Lol

But, the number of "original escapees" was still very small. And, since the original escape, many of those animals might have died fairly early on, leaving an even smaller founder population that expanded. Inbreeding and genetic bottlenecking could still be a problem. If someone wants to establish a captive breeding population based on these feral animals they would need to consider this.

OP you need to check with the state of HI about rules/restrictions for commercial dealings in feral species.

 

[Dave85731]

What do you mean by escapees tho? I think your thinking of it as kinda like Florida but with out the hurricane

 

[Carlton]

What do you mean by escapees tho? I think your thinking of it as kinda like Florida but with out the hurricane

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I thought the main source for feral jackson's in HI was a defunct commercial breeding program. The business failed and the chams were allowed to "conveniently" escape.

 

[Dave85731]

Yea kinda like that but not kept as pets they were brought there and released not kept in cages but they used to be a main source for us in the us but then Hawaii made it illegal to leave the island and now they just took over so they’re now a pest so it’s not like a few got loose then started breeding I wanna say veilds on Maui started with people releasing them that I would would believe to have inbreeding there but with Jackson’s I don’t believe it to be that way when you look into the history like everything else on that island everything was put on that island there’s technically nothing there that wasn’t put there by man

 

[Calummaty Jane]

Yea kinda like that but not kept as pets they were brought there and released not kept in cages but they used to be a main source for us in the us but then Hawaii made it illegal to leave the island and now they just took over so they’re now a pest so it’s not like a few got loose then started breeding I wanna say veilds on Maui started with people releasing them that I would would believe to have inbreeding there but with Jackson’s I don’t believe it to be that way when you look into the history like everything else on that island everything was put on that island there’s technically nothing there that wasn’t put there by man

The podcast tells of a reptile store owner importing 30 animals and letting them air out or something on the trees in his backyard for a couple of hours after unpacking...and that was that. But I do find it a little suspicious that no other animals escaped from stores or pet owners. Even so, Petr Necas has done genetic testing on Hawaiian jacksons and compared them with various Kenyan and Tanzanian populations and he described the Hawaiians as inbred and showing signs of genetic weakness due to an early bottleneck. So.

But, does that mean that these animals aren't good to introduce into captive breeding programs? It also sounded like from the same podcast that most Jacksons in captivity these days are wild caught--from Hawaii--and breeding is pretty informal, and that often means things like inbreeding or bottleneck stuff. FWIW, genetic bottle neck effects are not exactly the same as inbreeding, and inbreeding isn't always terrible. Homo sapiens, for one, experienced a really dramatic bottleneck back some 200,000 years ago or something (trying to recall conversations with a genetic anthropologist I used to work with years ago)--it just means that our species experiences a dramatic reduction in genetic diversity around that time and, as a result, all of us decendents of the survivors of whatever event created the bottleneck, share a larger percentage of our genes than would otherwise have been the case. If that reduced inventory of genes includes some "bad" genes, then it is a problem.

LOL! I'm overstepping here, I'm sure. I don't even have a chameleon! And I'm not a genetic anthro, nor a biologist (though dating one and worked with some for a few years--just enough exposure to make me think I know something.) Sorry for taking over this thread, guys.

 

[Dave85731]

Lol no I get what your saying but yea there would have to be all kinds of stuff to be able to tell if inbreeding is going on like you said blood work even tagging them like we do whales and sharks no one would ever know the truth same goes for Madagascar those cities are small for each locale who’s to really say brother and sister don’t meet up in the future for breeding would never know unless there’s tagging going on I only knew about the Jackson’s cuz I used to live there and asked about how they got there then any local you ask will go into how everything introduced to the island was a huge fail lol

 

[jamest0o0]

Completely off topic, but I love your profile pic cham @Dave85731

 

[JacksJill]

If you compare the Hawaiian xanths with the Kenyan xanths the differences are significant. The Hawaiian's are prone to horn deformities, are smaller and in general less thrifty.
The pet store owner trying to rehydrate them outside is the story I see most often blamed for there becoming feral in Hawaii.

 

[Dave85731]

I’ve seen difference in both colors and build... and we’re talking wild here anything can happen out there a horn can bend and grow retarded don’t mean it’s deformed and like you said “the story you hear” I only know from experience on how they look over there and what I was told by locals