Cham keeps falling off of everything!

[ChemeleonLady]

Hello!

My cham keeps falling off of pretty much everything. I held him today and his legs seem to work and nothing seems to be wrong externally (i.e. no swelling), but he hasn't even been able to really climb up his vines. I'm starting to get very concerned about him. He hasn't taken any major falls that I know of, everything around his cage is padded with blankets or very fluffy carpet. Has this happened to anyone's cham?? If so what was wrong with them? At this point I'm looking for vets because its so out of sorts for him to be falling all over the place.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

 

[Andee]

Falling with still usable grip etc, is usually a sign of early mbd or some sort of joint issue. Can you fill out the "how to ask for help" stickied to the top of this board? Also posting a few pictures of his entire body and enclosure would help.

 

[Brad]

I would go ahead and schedule an appointment with your experienced veterinarian asap.

 

[ChemeleonLady]

Here is his body, he seems to have good grip.

 

[Andee]

All that swelling is a sign of a huge problem. Since it's in all four legs I would assume it's a form of MBD, though gout is a possibility? Depends on if xrays show poor bone density. I definitely agree with Brad with getting him to the vet. Either diagnosis of what I have mentioned can only be treated by a vet. Especially since he is falling, if it's something else, I would definitely worry about what it is if it's affecting him so much physically. Keep everything padded for sure. When did you last replace you UVB?

 

[ChemeleonLady]

All that swelling is a sign of a huge problem. Since it's in all four legs I would assume it's a form of MBD, though gout is a possibility? Depends on if xrays show poor bone density. I definitely agree with Brad with getting him to the vet. Either diagnosis of what I have mentioned can only be treated by a vet. Especially since he is falling, if it's something else, I would definitely worry about what it is if it's affecting him so much physically. Keep everything padded for sure. When did you last replace you UVB?

I replaced the UVB and the heat lamp within the last week.

 

[ChemeleonLady]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care? Veiled, male, 3ish, 1 year
  
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon? 3-4 times a week (only when he wants to come out of his cage) otherwise I do not bother him.
  
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders? Crickets, meal worms. About 2 crickets and three meal worms a day (he eats when he wants to). I gut-load with sweat potato.
  
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? Calcium: Repti Calcium, Multi: Reptivite, Calcium is about once a week/week and a half, and vitamins once every two weeks.
  
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking? Drip and spray. Mist whenever its not humid in the cage. Yes I see him drink.
  
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? Droppings are normal dark brown then whiteish. No he has not been tested for parasites.
  
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. I GOT HIM FROM PETCO.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions? Screen cage.
  
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? Not sure the brand. Light turns on at 7am and turns of at 7pm.
  
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps? About 70 to 85 degrees. Overnight is about 65. I have thermometers meant for chams in the cage.
  
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? Humidity ranges from moderate to tropical. I maintain these levels with misting and a cold humidifier outside the cage (never hits the cam). Humidity gauge.
  
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? Air plants.
  
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? Located in a very secluded area of my bedroom, but he is still able to see me.
  
• Location - Where are you geographically located? Southern CA

 

[Andee]

So you got him at 2? and you got him from petco? Was he in petco for the entire time? Or was he an adoption? Does the Reptivite you use have D3? I know there is one with D3 and one without. The other thing I would worry about is your lack of feeder variety and gutloading issues. But these can be addresses after you respond... And you replace your UVB every 6 months right? Is the repti-calcium you have plain calcium? Since you are gutloading so poorly (though I have to admit it is likely better than some people I have seen) you should be dusting with plain calcium every day. That is very likely contributing to bone density issues.

 

[broderp]

Your Cham looks like he may have a respiratory infection. The swelling of his cask looks just like the cham in THIS THREAD:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/swelling-of-casque-and-cheeks.155663/

The OP of that thread took his Cham to the vet and was diagnosed with subcutaneous emphysema due to a respiratory infection.

Please go to a vet soon. He's a beautiful chameleon.

 

[ChemeleonLady]

Hi All,

Thank you for the responses!! I have already made him a vet appointment for tomorrow. I love him so much, and honestly I thought I was doing everything right. I'm going to have the vet check out everything on my little man.

 

[ChemeleonLady]

Your Cham looks like he may have a respiratory infection. The swelling of his cask looks just like the cham in THIS THREAD:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/swelling-of-casque-and-cheeks.155663/

The OP of that thread took his Cham to the vet and was diagnosed with subcutaneous emphysema due to a respiratory infection.

Please go to a vet soon. He's a beautiful chameleon.

Oh wow interesting! I'm taking him tomorrow and I will definitelyask about this! Thank you so much!!!

 

[ChemeleonLady]

So you got him at 2? and you got him from petco? Was he in petco for the entire time? Or was he an adoption? Does the Reptivite you use have D3? I know there is one with D3 and one without. The other thing I would worry about is your lack of feeder variety and gutloading issues. But these can be addresses after you respond... And you replace your UVB every 6 months right? Is the repti-calcium you have plain calcium? Since you are gutloading so poorly (though I have to admit it is likely better than some people I have seen) you should be dusting with plain calcium every day. That is very likely contributing to bone density issues.

I think I filled that out wrong, I got him when he was about 1 year old. He lived in the Petco store until I got him. The Reptivite I use DOES have D3. Honestly at the Petco by my house, all they really sell that he can eat is crickets, meal worms (which I read are very fatty), and super worms. I've seen no-fly flies, but they are so small I don't think he would be able to even see them. Yes I replace the UVB every 6ish months. The Repti-Calcium is without D3 and is regular calcium I guess. I though sweet potatoes were like one of the best things to gut load with. Thank you for letting me know about the calcium. I read somewhere on here that its dangerous to dust with calcium ever day.

 

[Andee]

It's good that you are taking him in. Hopefully he can pull out of it. He's not horribly old if he truly is only 3 years old, so hopefully he can keep going with the right care. Definitely try to get an Xray if you can. It can tell you a lot. Usually mbd needs liquid calcium "therapy" for at least a year to slow down and possibly reverse some of the physical deformations that have happened. I usually continue those who I've done liquid calcium with through out their lives, just less often when they are more stable. Hopefully it's not too bad whatever he has. I know gout can be way harder to treat than mbd in my opinion. Calcium is the problem so much as calcium with D3 no dusting with that everyday for sure ^^. So the fact he was in petco a year could have set him up for some deficiencies too. You can order some feeders online depending on where you are. And sweet potatoes are great! trust me, but there needs to be a lot of variety with feeders. So try mustard greens, rutabega, carrot tops, strawberry tops, oranges every now and then... dino and tuscan kale are great too... umm dandelion leaves... carrots on occasion, beet tops are good too, herbs of various type if you ever get them fresh... (if you have certain things you eat on regular basis are far as veggies or fruit, then ask about them and I can give you info on whether they help with gut loads)... I use my roaches and various feeders as garbage disposals a lot for veggies and fruits. If I can't or won't eat a certain part of a veggies or fruit but they aren't growing mold and aren't dangerous then I feed them off. It also depends on how much I feed to them depending on the benefits the get from it.

 

[ChemeleonLady]

It's good that you are taking him in. Hopefully he can pull out of it. He's not horribly old if he truly is only 3 years old, so hopefully he can keep going with the right care. Definitely try to get an Xray if you can. It can tell you a lot. Usually mbd needs liquid calcium "therapy" for at least a year to slow down and possibly reverse some of the physical deformations that have happened. I usually continue those who I've done liquid calcium with through out their lives, just less often when they are more stable. Hopefully it's not too bad whatever he has. I know gout can be way harder to treat than mbd in my opinion. Calcium is the problem so much as calcium with D3 no dusting with that everyday for sure ^^. So the fact he was in petco a year could have set him up for some deficiencies too. You can order some feeders online depending on where you are. And sweet potatoes are great! trust me, but there needs to be a lot of variety with feeders. So try mustard greens, rutabega, carrot tops, strawberry tops, oranges every now and then... dino and tuscan kale are great too... umm dandelion leaves... carrots on occasion, beet tops are good too, herbs of various type if you ever get them fresh... (if you have certain things you eat on regular basis are far as veggies or fruit, then ask about them and I can give you info on whether they help with gut loads)... I use my roaches and various feeders as garbage disposals a lot for veggies and fruits. If I can't or won't eat a certain part of a veggies or fruit but they aren't growing mold and aren't dangerous then I feed them off. It also depends on how much I feed to them depending on the benefits the get from it.

Thank you so so so so so much for the information! I really hope he can pull out of it too. He is my special little man. I feel horrible that he isn't feeling good. So you are saying DO dust with calcium (that doesnt have D3) every single day?? And to feed the crickets and worms and other things that I can find the things above (gut-loading them with these greens)??

 

[Andee]

Yes, there are certain, feeders that you can't gutload on things I mentioned but those are naturally healthy anyways. Definitely dust with plain calcium everyday except when you dust with the reptivite ^^

 

[ChemeleonLady]

Hi everyone!! I just wanted to give and update on my Cham and hopefully provide some information to other Cham owners out there about these signs. So, Cami has MBD (see the post about the disease in the health topic area, I couldn't have known so much about it without this post and everyone on here), in addition he has an infection on his head. The following symptoms are cause by MBD (at least for him) swelling of the legs, lack of back leg use (seeming paralyzed), constant falling, and lack of grip on the back legs. X-rays were done and showed bone density loss. The bill was about $300 if anyone is interested. Next steps? For his infection they gave him antibiotics. To treat and reverse the paralysis of the back legs and MBD, liquid calcium for at least 3 months (probably more). He will not be back to normal for a very long time, but I'm just happy he is okay!!!!! My recommendation to all of you: 1) don't hesitate to go to the vet, 2) totally understand supplement requirements, and don't skimp on them or forget, 3) don't take on a Cham if your not willing to put a lot of time, effort, money, and love into it! Do your research and do what is best for them, also probably don't get them from petco... they don't take good care of their animals. Honestly I would really like to thank those of you that commented on my post. You all really helped me out so I knew what I was talking about going into the vet. I seriously appreciate all your advice and taking the time out of your day to respond to my post. So often when our animals are sick we feel helpless, at least I do. So to have a community of people on here that help with the big and small stuff really does make a difference. Thank you all so much!!

 

[ChemeleonLady]

Yes, there are certain, feeders that you can't gutload on things I mentioned but those are naturally healthy anyways. Definitely dust with plain calcium everyday except when you dust with the reptivite ^^

Thank you so much for the advice and help Andee! I am going to start gut loading the feeders much better now, and also I will find a place that carries more feeder variety. I really appreciate your help and taking the time out of your day to give me such detailed instructions.

 

[Andee]

There are places online if you can order online feeders. I can mention a few places I order from. Depending on what side of the US? you live on I may have a really good place that would send to you since you only have one cham. And I am happy I could help in any way that I did. I don't have much I do during the day at the moment, and my life revolves around my animals and over half of them are rescues. So my desire to help animals extends to other peoples' naturally. I can not save animals on my own. Just due to space and time XD So I do the next best thing, give advice when I can and hope for all those that need good vibes. Your guys has some pretty horribly stuff going on with him, but I have seen worse trust me. And I have seen plenty of those worse cases turn around completely. Just keep doing his meds and keep your chin up ^^

 

[theintouchable88]

Glad he's being taken care of. $300 is a steep vet bill but for me, a chams or any pets life is more important. Good thing u mentioned the amount as I was wondering what would be a good vet fund to have and I happend to have had that much saved up for him in case anything happens. Hope to see his progress as he gets better! Best of luck

 

[Andee]

I would be always adding to the vet fund a small amount every pay check. Even if all you can spare is 5-10 dollars it ALWAYS adds up. Not all vet bills cost 300 dollars, it also depends on your vet. The thing that raised the cost that much would be the xray. I would normally have to pay around 150 for xray and general vet appointment the meds she mentioned would have cost probably no more than 40 dollars for me. But I have a very good exotic vet who also does small animals, and she doesn't charge a ton of money. She also sometimes charges me less depending on what or who we are working on. It's not all the time she does it. But when it's just a simple thing like a fecal or dose of vitamins for a brand new rescue she seems to get a soft heart and charge me less. I think it's because I am constantly coming in and a lot of the time with new animals. She will ask the background of how this particular one got into my hands, because usually when I get a hold of my hamsters or chameleons, or geckos, they are usually in some shirt circumstances. I have had severe cases of MBD, horrible vitamin deficiencies, severe dehydration, starvation cases... that's just in my reptiles. In my hamsters I have had starvation to the point of nuerological symptoms that was fixed with a few days of good food and some extra calories, I have dealt with mange, dehydration of course, star gazing, poor dental care, some hamsters I swear were abused in some way. It's jsut amazing what as come into my life. I have had a couple cases of syrian hamsters with wet tail, which if you don't know what it is it's very similar that the parvo disease dogs can get only for hamsters. Usually it's almost impossible to treat and requires a huge amount of supportive care. I have only had one survivor out of three cases I think. When I started rescuing so much on a huge scale, I think my vet was just amazed and she often said she could at least reduce the price for the good I was doing. I just look at people and say... how can I leave them in a situation like that when I know I can get them better.