CHAMELEON ARMAGEDDON: INBREEDING IN YEMEN CHAMELEONS

[PetNcs]

CHAMELEON ARMAGEDDON
aka
Inbreeding in Yemen Chameleons

The disaster is so intense, that we even do not recognize, most if our animals are freaks of nature (helped to become this by humans)... :-( they became the norm already...

https://zenodo.org/record/3751205#.Xper-SWxUlR

 

[Lennoncham]

The disaster is so intense, that we even do not recognize, most if our animals are freaks of nature (helped to become this by humans)

“Petr produced tens of thousands of veiled chameleons in captivity, made many of the initial studies of calyptratus husbandry, and was instrumental to introducing this species to captivity in both Europe and the US.”


so I guess we should thank you then?

 

[PetNcs]

“Petr produced tens of thousands of veiled chameleons in captivity, made many of the initial studies of calyptratus husbandry, and was instrumental to introducing this species to captivity in both Europe and the US.”


so I guess we should thank you then?

Well,
I take responsibility
And try ti help
And for more than a decade I tey to get new genetics.
Nit possible
War
No need ti thank me (but that was a sarcasm, right?)
I can stay silent as do all the breeders of freaks in pythons and leioardgwckos etc etc rhat inbreed intentionally just to get a new moroh a debilize the genetick intentionally. I am not silent
I soend hours oer day educating rhe global community about hiw to handltw these issues

 

[Tokoloshe]

Petr,

Thanks for highlighting this issue.

Is there a near to mid term solution you have in mind to correct this?

Thanks,

T

 

[nightanole]

DUmb question, but when is it considered "not imbreeding"?

I dont know how many Petr started with, or how he "rotated the crops" or if he even introduced new blood from time to time every few years.

But just about all the jacksons, are from from Hawaii, from what a starter group of 20? They dont seem to have this problem.


So when is it imbreeding, vs a "line" and becomes a problem. A starter group of 20?

 

[Highway61]

But just about all the jacksons, are from from Hawaii, from what a starter group of 20? They dont seem to have this problem.

They don't? I wonder is the same study/research has been done for Jacksons and the much more popular Panther species who seem to be bred only for color?

 

[CasqueAbove]

I understand your point Petr. It has always been a concern of mine. I know more of snakes than Chams , but it is the same issue.
I am very interested in the Yemen Chameleon, and have been studying Yemen. It is pretty sad, it is a truly beautiful magical place being torn apart by “civil war” controlled by outside players.
I do not think it is fair to blame Petr for not knowing everything at what, 20 or so. He is the first I have seen take responsibility.
I think some breeding for colors is ok, but like I say no one wants to claim the flaws. And some breed knowing of problems. Like the Spider Ball, Jaguar carpet, and the snow leopard geckos.
I am interested in breeding, but this is one of my issues. I would like as much diversity as possible, but I don’t know that I can find that out.

as far as new bloodline, well looking into Yemen, I feel bad even worrying about a lizard. It is a truly sad situation. I watched a video of children talking about their lives in war. Heartbreaking ?

 

[Brodybreaux25]

This is going to be a good one.

 

[cyberlocc]

I love this Petr, its funny, I have been thinking about getting into breeding Chams, and a few other Reptiles, and was telling Brody and James about this, a couple of days before you had your post on FB. My plan, was / is, to do what I learned from the Gecko Community, use a Program Called "Kintraks" that allows you to trace back lines, and see inbreeding coefficient and keep impeccable records.

If it were me, I would rather choose an Animal, that has impeccable records, of Health and Lineage, than a Line bred "Color Pallete" riddled with sickness, and errors in Genetics. Breeding for color, means inbreeding and breeding down, bad genes, and issues to maintain that color line. Your potentially* sacrificing the animals health in exchange for "Premium Colors" that carry a higher price tag. Seems silly.

HOWEVER, the Community as Reptile, and the Community as Chameleon, have endorsed this behavior very strongly. As you mentioned, Pythons and Leos, however even in our world, its seen as a postive. Kammers and Screameleons are 2 of the most popular breeders around (well Screameleons are gone now) both are serious line breeders, and they are not alone, not picking on them at all, just saying the "Best" breeders, are the "Line Breeders", just goes to show you, the community is endorsing the behavior.

* I had to specify Potentially, as Inbreeding in reptiles is a hot debated topic. I am not saying that a Cham or any Reptile, WILL BE sick, if it comes from a Line Breeder, I am simply stating that passing bad traits, as the only worry is for the wanted traits, is very possible. Line Breeding is not something I want to be a part of, but no shade to folks who Line Breed, and feel that its okay. There is good data on both sides, and pros and cons to each, I am only giving my OPINION on the matter, and my goals in my own projects.

DUmb question, but when is it considered "not imbreeding"?

8 Generations. Kintraks, gives a inbreeding coefficient of .7% or so, after 8 generations. I guess 9, to fully remove all Inbreeding. 8 is generally acceptable, as not inbred, and would likely be as far as you could get in a WC animal. 8 was my point, and that of others who use the same record system.

So when is it imbreeding, vs a "line" and becomes a problem. A starter group of 20?

"Line Breeding" is a Fancy way to say Inbreeding.


"line breed·ing, noun, the selective breeding of animals for a desired feature by mating them within a closely related line."


The Larger Problem, is and this is something that I have considered, whilst getting ready to indulge in my own breeding venture. Is how can we ensure that WCs, are not related as well? We really cant.

We first need breeders with Impeccable Records, to allow new breeders to keep impeccable records, or the new breeders (Like Me) that want said Impeccable Records, are going to have to start with fully WC stock, and hope none of those are related by dumb luck.

So if you started with 20, 20 becomes 10, of those 10, you can breed 5 pairs, of those 5, you can breed 2 pairs, so new bloodlines will be needed at that point or before, depending on the goal. You have reached Gen 5, and need 3 more to be able to breed back, if my math is on point. That would be something we would have to layout on Paint or something to show the chart.

 

[CasqueAbove]

So with the Yemen, what info do we have ? Or do we? I know you can send in DNA for your dog and see what it is. I wonder what the difficulties would be in setting up something like this.
I am with @cyberlocc on this. I would rather offer documented clean , genetically speaking, animals, as well as by them.

I will have to admit my own ignorance on the subject. When I started getting back into the hobby, with all the new genitive lines, I did not see the dark side. I also did not understand the difference , genetic line speaking, of snakes and lizards. I have some egg incubating now, and as I look back, I believe they may be brother and sister. They were purchased same time , same show, two venders, but still they are same age so I am thinking it is part of iner trading at shows. Not a bad thing, just I should have been more aware.

 

[cyberlocc]

So with the Yemen, what info do we have ? Or do we? I know you can send in DNA for your dog and see what it is. I wonder what the difficulties would be in setting up something like this.
I am with @cyberlocc on this. I would rather offer documented clean , genetically speaking, animals, as well as by them.

I will have to admit my own ignorance on the subject. When I started getting back into the hobby, with all the new genitive lines, I did not see the dark side. I also did not understand the difference , genetic line speaking, of snakes and lizards. I have some egg incubating now, and as I look back, I believe they may be brother and sister. They were purchased same time , same show, two venders, but still they are same age so I am thinking it is part of iner trading at shows. Not a bad thing, just I should have been more aware.

So a couple of the Leaf Tail breeders I have been working with, will give you their Kintraks. They have sold me, thats my plan as well.

For me, and my upcoming breeding project involving geckos and chams, I will not be buying animals, that do not give me the Chamfax! 8 Generations or to the WC wall, and I will not be accepting anything less, Personally. As to the Animals I breed and sell, I will be Providing the same, with every animal I sell.

I know Petr was talking about building a network of breeders doing the same, a bit ago on Facebook. If you do that Petr, I want in. It would be nice to have a community of breeders that follow the same thought process, and can be traded with.

Thats going to be the only way to ensure not getting siblings, as you think you have.

 

[CasqueAbove]

So a couple of the Leaf Tail breeders I have been working with, will give you their Kintraks. They have sold me, thats my plan as well.

For me, and my upcoming breeding project involving geckos and chams, I will not be buying animals, that do not give me the Chamfax! 8 Generations or to the WC wall, and I will not be accepting anything less, Personally. As to the Animals I breed and sell, I will be Providing the same, with every animal I sell.

I know Petr was talking about building a network of breeders doing the same, a bit ago on Facebook. If you do that Petr, I want in. It would be nice to have a community of breeders that follow the same thought process, and can be traded with.

Thats going to be the only way to ensure not getting siblings, as you think you have.

I like the idea, my concern, with Yemen specifically is Finding anyone with records. We know it is a small gene pool, so if it cant be traced to origin we cant be sure. Leaf tail are lucky, they are coming into a better world of knowledge. I fear so much of the lineage has been lost for Yemen. Even if I go cross country, I could end up with cousins. I have been looking into FLChams, as it seems they may have better line tracing.

 

[cyberlocc]

I like the idea, my concern, with Yemen specifically is Finding anyone with records. We know it is a small gene pool, so if it cant be traced to origin we cant be sure. Leaf tail are lucky, they are coming into a better world of knowledge. I fear so much of the lineage has been lost for Yemen. Even if I go cross country, I could end up with cousins. I have been looking into FLChams, as it seems they may have better line tracing.

Ya Yemen got it the worst, tbh. They are rarely sold as WC, unless Florida WC, which are likely polluted lines themselves.

For me, in dealing with Malagasy Species only, I have a simpler time, as I can better ensure that I am getting WCs from Madagascar, if it comes to that, much like the leaf tails.

Honestly a lot of it, sadly probably comes down to price of the animals. Satanic Leaf tails are 600+ a piece, so those breeders are more invested in their lines, than someone breeding out 30 dollar Veileds. Even with Panthers though, and the "Ranching" there is still possibility of Inbreeding, and really just not knowing what your going to get, thats a mess all of its own, that there again the Leaf Tails dont have to deal with. Parsons, Carpets, Minors, ect are places you are more likely to see the better breeding records, and the ability to easily trace back.


With Veileds and Jacksons, its going to be tough. Its hard to get a breeder to justify keeping good records, when they are mass breeding 30 dollar animals. The Folks, that can and will work hard to get from Yemen WCs, and breed better lines with clean records, are going to want a premium, and thats going to be a tough sell, when you can buy a Yemen for 30 at Petco.

I am fairly sure FLChams is a Linebreeder, Petr could better tell us, but the "Unrecognizable Animals" he speaks of, are the ones that FL chams specializes in. I do not know much about Yemen Chameleons, but I am pretty sure these below, is not Natural, this is likely line bred.

 

[Highway61]

If it were me, I would rather choose an Animal, that has impeccable records, of Health and Lineage, than a Line bred "Color Pallete" riddled with sickness, and errors in Genetics. Breeding for color, means inbreeding and breeding down, bad genes, and issues to maintain that color line. Your potentially* sacrificing the animals health in exchange for "Premium Colors" that carry a higher price tag. Seems silly.

You just described the primary goal of the American Kennel Club where all breeders are line breeders. When I bought my first Border Collie puppy (from a working line) 7 yrs ago, I joined the American Border Collie Association Forum which was very helpful for a beginner to the breed like myself.

I know off topic but ABCA is dedicated to the preservation of the traditional working dog and it's guidelines are dedicated to working stock, not confirmation. You think this place can be harsh with the "tough love"? Start a thread on ABCA Forums posting a picture of your candy coated colored Border Collie and it's AKC pedigree you spent $4,000 on and watch the zealots there barbeque you!

 

[cyberlocc]

You just described the primary goal of the AKC where all breeders are line breeders. When I bought my Border Collie puppy (from a working line) 7 yrs ago, I joined the ABCA Forum which was very helpful for a beginner to the breed like myself.

I knowe off topic but American Border Collie Association is dedicated to the preservation of the traditional working dog and it's guidelines are dedicated to working stock, not confirmation. You think this place can be harsh with the "tough love"? Start a thread on ABCA Forums posting a picture of your candy coated colored Border Collie and it's pedigree and watch the zealots there barbaque you!

I am aware, have myself had bad results with them as well. My Ex in college wanted to get into breeding Yorkie Poos, so we got 2 Male Yorkies, and a Red Poodle Female. Both Yorkies (from diffrent breeders, at different times, 5 months apart, same AKC group though) Got sick with in 2 months of owning them, were taken to a Vet, to be told they needed to be put down.

Both Yorkies, had Liver Shunts, and needed 15k dollar surgeries, and would need care and medicine for the rest of their lives. The Vet, (same Vet) said that it was very common in Line Bred Yorkies, and this is why you dont inbreed. She suggested putting them down, as it was a miserable and expensive road for them and us trying to correct inbreeding mistakes.

Niether breeder, ever gave us our money, promised puppies from the next batch that we didn't want (nor did they ever follow through with!), and it was a nightmare. We paid 3500 for the first one, and 3000 for the second, on top of 1500 in vet bills combined, we walked away with No Yorkie, and 8000 dollars poorer. That entire community is Evil!

To be fair, with the AKC community, the Poodle is still alive and doing great for my Ex, so it may have just been bad luck, with the Yorkies but still.

Also I am not a Vet, so I dont know, if Inbreeding caused this, as much as a parent had it (debated on the internet), or whatever. All I know is, what my Vet said, and my experience with AKC and "Designer" dogs. My family currently has a Designer dog, but she was not AKC pedigree, and is slightly mixed, she is Maltese with some Toy Eskimo in the Grandlines, no inbreeding healthy happpy, wonderful dog, that looks just like any Maltese on AKC IMO (Well a short hair, we dont have her with super long hair, it does grow fast though, we keep her hair like 3 inches or so)

 

[Lennoncham]

Not trying to blame Petr. Surely he couldn’t of known war would start and exports would be shut down.

I do appreciate the fact that you have tried to work with the government to get more diversity to the blood lines.

was just pointing out that you had a major part in the issue. No matter how many animals you started with if you produce tens of thousands of them you are severely watering down the genetic lines. I’m sure you worked hard not to do so to much but it’s inevitable.

if you produced tens of thousands of them then you also sold tens of thousands and watered down the market even more with few genetic lines.

just a thought but maybe you should of included the reason there is such few genetic diversity in Yemen chameleons. Being that war started and exports got banned.

that being said I’m sure there is inbreeding in the wild as well. Most chameleons don’t have a huge distribution range.

 

[cyberlocc]

Not trying to blame Petr. Surely he couldn’t of known war would start and exports would be shut down.

I do appreciate the fact that you have tried to work with the government to get more diversity to the blood lines.

was just pointing out that you had a major part in the issue. No matter how many animals you started with if you produce tens of thousands of them you are severely watering down the genetic lines. I’m sure you worked hard not to do so to much but it’s inevitable.

if you produced tens of thousands of them then you also sold tens of thousands and watered down the market even more with few genetic lines.

just a thought but maybe you should of included the reason there is such few genetic diversity in Yemen chameleons. Being that war started and exports got banned.

that being said I’m sure there is inbreeding in the wild as well. Most chameleons don’t have a huge distribution range.

100% there is.

The question is not of if there is inbreeding. But rather to what extent.

We may see, brother and sister mate, but how often does that happen. Its surely not every time, and surely not continuing over long periods of time.

Seeing the fact that Wild chameleons especially females have a lifespan of 1 season usually (at least for the species I work with) 2 at the max, son to mother is also not prevalent.

Its different from them to occasionally inbreed once or twice, an F3 Animal, is not that bad off. However ask some of the big panther breeders, what Filial they are. Some of them are selling animals that are F6-F8, I have seen in these and other forums, breeders ask, what is okay. With replies of F8-F11, before any problems! That's ludicrous.

Inbreeding Brother and Sister in the wild, once or twice. Is miles different to inbreeding 10 Generations in a row. And alot of the line breedrrs go to F5-F6 and then add in a new blood, and do it again. That way they don't have to say F27, as new blood was added 1 time every 6 generations to inbreed some more!