Chameleon is not eating/drinking

[wurmpie]

Hello everyone,
I have a male Nosy Valiha panther chameleon, he is 5 months old (almost 6 months)

Chameleon Info:

Your Chameleon – Panther chameleon male. He is 5 months old, almost 6 months. I bought him when he was 3 months old.

Handling –I handle him every now and then. He is reasonably tame. I think it’s about 1-2x per week.

Feeding -
I feed him crickets and wax moths. I feed him crickets every day. I put powdered crickets in a cup, place the cup in the terrarium, so he can shoot all day long. In the evening I take the cup out. I use wax moths as a snack, a few every week (about 6 a week)
I gut load the crickets with fresh greens and vegetables (apple, salad, carrot, grape and thing like that) and I put Vit-All over it (sticky tongue farms)

Supplements
Calcium without D3- almost every day (Zoo med)
Minerall outdoor (no D3) once every week (sticky tongue farms)
Minerall indoor (with D3) once every two weeks (sticky tongue farms)
Reptivite (vitamins with D3) once every two weeks (Zoo med)
And I give the feeders Vit-All

Watering -
I mist my chameleon about three times per day. About 2-3 minutes every session. I use a spray bottle. I always saw him drink before, but now he doesn’t drink at all. I also tried to make a dripper. He doesn’t use it.

Fecal Description -
The last poo I saw was 2 days ago. The poo itself was light brown, and a little bit mushy, but still in one piece. The urate was white and a bit runny. Before it was always dark brown poo, firm, and runny urate (I suppose he was well hydrated?)
He’s never been tested for parasites.

History -
About two weeks ago I accidentally put the heat lamp too close to the terrarium. (the hot spot was 35 c (95 F) I didn’t notice at first, but after 30 minutes my cham opened his mouth and started hanging really weird from his branch. I quickly took him out of the cage and cooled him down with water. His temperature was 39 C (102 F) which is way too hot. After some cooling down he did fine again. A week ago I changed the heat lamp so the hot spot is now 32 c (88 F)

Cage Info:

Cage TypeGlass cage. I think its 60x40x35 cm(24x15x14 inch) There are two large screen strips on the top, and one on the front of the terrarium.

Lighting -
UV: Zoomed reptisun, 24Watt 5.0 UV—7:00 to 22:00 turned on
Heat: Zoomed basking lamp, 60 watt—7:00 to 22:00 turned on
right now it’s vacation, I wake up late so they turn on at 9:30 an off at 23:00

Temperature
Hot spot: 32 C (89,5 F)
Lowest place (bottom): 18 C (64 F)
I use a thermogun to measure.

Humidity -
Humidity is about 50-60%. I have a hygrometer in the bottom of the cage. You can also see ‘’steam’’
(I don’t know what it is in English) on the glass. when it gets below 40 I spray more water in the cage

Plants – I have one Ficus Exotica, a white and green ficus plant.

Placement – The terrarium is set on a 40 cm high table, the top of the terrarium is about the height of a chin. It’s in the corner of a bedroom.

Location -West Europe

Current Problem

My chameleon won’t eat or drink at all. His eyes are a bit sunken in his sockets, he is dark in color and keeps going to the low part of the terrarium, not under the hot spot. I think his gums are a bit pale too. He is also very, very slow. But because he keeps going away from the heat, he cools down and gets slow.
He even won’t eat wax moths, which he used to love. He hasn’t eaten for 6 days, and I haven’t seen him drink either. When I drip water on his mouth, he doesn’t open his mouth.
I have heard people say chameleons can go without eating for 2 weeks. But since this cham is only 6 months old, can he go without food for much longer?
Should I start force feeding him? Can I use Hills AD cat food for that? How much an how often does he need it?

Does anyone know what I’m doing wrong and what he might have?

I added some pictures. The first 3 are when he still ate and was doing good. The last 2 are his pale gums.

 

[jpowell86]

I would have a fecal done asap. Usually when a chameleon has been fine and then suddenly starts to decline, my mind goes to parasitic involvement. He looks great in the first pictures, but the last pic is where I can see what you mean about his eyes pulling in. I also notice in the pictures that the soil in your ficus pot is exposed. Is that the original soil that came with the Ficus? Chameleons, especially panthers, will sometimes eat the most random of things.

 

[wurmpie]

Thank you for your reaction.
I might go to a vet if he continues like this. I hope he poops soon
Yes, it is the original soil. Can I do anything to stop him from eating that? I've never seen him do it, but there is a possibility he does it when I'm not around.

 

[jpowell86]

Here's the issue. When you buy plants from a nursery, they have been subjected to pesticides and fertilizers that can be extremely harmful to your chameleon. I would suggest taking the ficus out and washing it first. This can be done with soapy water. Just make sure to rinse the plant down well afterwards. I would also repot the ficus. Replace the existing soil with organic soil. Then you will want to place a generous layer of river rock over the surface of the soil to make sure you little guy can't get in to it.

Forewarning, if your fecal test comes back positive..I would ditch everything that is in your enclosure that can't be properly sanitized. No since in risking it. You will also want to clean the enclosure itself thoroughly. There are many threads here on the Forums that give great information for these steps. Sorry I don't have the links handy.

 

[wurmpie]

Thank you for your reaction.
He suddenly got way worse, he can't even hold on to his branch and he is very weak. Sits with his eyes closed most of the time .
He also has a very weird discoloration on his head, above the nostrils. His whole head is light yellow, but above the nostrils there are two dark spots. he didn't have that before.

I will go to the vet this afternoon, but unfortunately I wasn't able to get him to poop. I tried showering, but he didn't even notice the water.
I hope it is not something worse than parasites.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Is he a captive bred or a wild caught?

Your vet should be able to get him hydrated with subcutaneous fluids. Have the vet use fluids that have B vitamins and calcium in it, plus a bit of glucose or dextrose for a bit of energy. Sometimes just hydrating them with a little glucose or dextrose (a sugar) will be enough to boost them up out of this downward spiral.

Even if it is caused by parasites I would be incredibly hesitant to give him anything for the parasites because of his poor condition. Dehydration plus most meds cause kidney damage. Sometimes it's a damned if you do (medicate) and damned if you don't situation. Get him stabilized (hydrated) before adding medication.

Good luck.

 

[wurmpie]

Hey,
I just came back from the vet,I didn't read your message yet.
He is a captive bred chameleon.
The fecal exam showed some hings; a few amoebe, some mites (not sure if bloodmite) and a few worms.
The poop was old, so it is still unsure if its caused by parasites.

Since my chameleons condition was so bad, the vet took him in for the night to give him feeding and water trough a tube.
He said it might be caused by the mineral-calcium scheme I use; he thought that I use too much calcium and too little vitamins and minerals.
(calcium 5x per week; vitamines/minerals 2x per week)
I'm not sure if he was going to use anti parasite medicine.
I really hope that little Wurmpie survives the night

 

[jajeanpierre]

Hey,
I just came back from the vet,I didn't read your message yet.
He is a captive bred chameleon.
The fecal exam showed some hings; a few amoebe, some mites (not sure if bloodmite) and a few worms.
The poop was old, so it is still unsure if its caused by parasites.

Since my chameleons condition was so bad, the vet took him in for the night to give him feeding and water trough a tube.
He said it might be caused by the mineral-calcium scheme I use; he thought that I use too much calcium and too little vitamins and minerals.
(calcium 5x per week; vitamines/minerals 2x per week)
I'm not sure if he was going to use anti parasite medicine.
I really hope that little Wurmpie survives the night

At this point, all you can do is trust your vet. I'm sure he will perk up a LOT once he is better hydrated.

Keep us posted.

 

[wurmpie]

He died yesterday
The vet called it ''a case of bad luck''
He too had no idea what was wrong with him, he either had a very bad case of parasites (that went into his kidneys and caused kidney failure)
Or he didn't respond good to the mineral/calcium scheme, or he was already sick when we bought him (like cancer or such thing)
I really thought I did everything right for my chameleon..

Now there is this dark empty terrarium next to me
I don't think I am going to get a new chameleon, I dont want this to happen again

Thank you for all your advice and help.

 

[T.NY]

Sorry for your lost RIP little one just a reminder for my self that things can go down hill very fast.

 

[wurmpie]

Yes, they are very delicate animals, unfortunately
I just wish I knew what went wrong, why it happened.
I wish I went to the vet earlier, after 3 days of not eating..
I think he had parasites, the last poop he had was very light-brown colored.
I'm so sad ;(

 

[jajeanpierre]

Yes, they are very delicate animals, unfortunately
I just wish I knew what went wrong, why it happened.
I wish I went to the vet earlier, after 3 days of not eating..
I think he had parasites, the last poop he had was very light-brown colored.
I'm so sad ;(

I'm really sorry for your loss. Did your vet do a necropsy? The vet can still do it Monday as long as he puts his body in a refrigerator. Necropsies aren't all that expensive--the one I paid for was less than $100. Sometimes knowing is worth the $100 even though it doesn't change the outcome. Again, sorry for your loss.

 

[wurmpie]

I called him, he is going to do a necropsy, I'll get the results later this week. Thanks for your support.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I called him, he is going to do a necropsy, I'll get the results later this week. Thanks for your support.

Don't beat yourself up. Three days of not eating is nothing. Chameleons don't usually die so suddenly and unexpectedly unless they've been injured.

The necropsy I paid for showed lungworms had trashed the lungs and it was not anything to do with my care. That was reassuring to know.

I'm hesitant to even mention this, but the necropsy I didn't pay for just confirmed to the vet and myself that the vet made a big mistake and nicked an artery in the throat area when giving subcutaneous fluids and the chameleon bled to death. The subcutaneous fluids we gave her was not "necessary" but would give her a boost. I didn't beat either myself or the vet up for that mistake. Mistakes happen.

I hope the necropsy gives you some peace of mind.

 

[wurmpie]

He died of Kidney failure.
The vet had the section results ready today, he found some flagellates in his bowels, but in his opinion not enough to cause kidney failure.

He thought of 3 possible reasons:
1. He was dehydrated which caused kidney failure
2. He had parasites (flagellates) that went into his kidneys
3. The minerals I used weren’t right.

I don’t think it was dehydration, his urates were always white and runny, I wasn’t able to keep the humidity up to 50-70, it was always about 40, could that cause dehydration? He didn’t look dehydrated at first.

so it must have been the minerals. The vet thought it was the minerals too, and that I don’t use enough vitamins.

Because of that, I want to get some things right.
I might take another chameleon, in about a month or so the breeder will have 4 month old nosy be’s

But if I will buy a new chameleon, I want to make sure this doesn’t happen again. It is pretty annoying because every vet, website and breeder has a different opinion in how to powder and gutload your crickets.

I was doing this:
Calcium without D3- almost every day (Calcium without D3)

Minerall outdoor (no D3) once every week (Minerals without D3)

Minerall indoor (with D3) once every two weeks (Minerals with D3)

Reptivite (vitamins with D3) once every two weeks (Multivitamin with D3)

I gutload the feeders, primary with fruits and veggies. for dry food I use cereals and fishfood. I powder the fruits and veggies with Vit-All.


My breeder told me to do this, he had very old chameleons (8 years old) at home, who are all healthy and happy, so It looked good.
This website says almost the same, except for the minerals without D3.
The vet said to give vitamins more often, and put calcium with D3 in the spraying water.
Another reptile vet I contacted said to use mineral indoor (Minerals with D3) every day, together with calcium. She also recommended nutri-grub, some sort of worm with calcium in it.

Am I doing it good, or should I change things in my feeding scheme?

 

[Carlton]

Based on your supplementation I think his calcium intake was OK, but I think possibly he was getting a lot of extra mineral and possibly vitamin content (Mineral Outdoor and Indoor, the Reptivite plus the Vit-All). There may have been a multiplier effect going on between the different products. Overdoses of fat soluble vitamins like D3 can mimic symptoms of MBD. Your vet was wrong about giving vitamins more often, and to add calcium with D3 in his water. The second vet was even worse...giving a cham minerals with D3 every day will cause major imbalances.

If his fecals were runny, that can be a sign of some specific parasites like coccidia, but the fecal analysis didn't show that apparently. I'm not a vet, but I wonder if this ended up being a combination of factors...marginal dehydration (cage humidity of 40% most of the time and not being sure how much he was drinking) which put stress on his kidneys plus overdoses of minerals and possibly the D3.

When a cham is declining rapidly its common to see odd coloration in odd areas. Also, his casque looks a bit sunken which to me is a sign of dehydration or poor body condition. This can show up before the cham starts pulling in his eyes.