Chameleon Looks Pale/Lethargic

[se900se]

After misting and feeding. On top of the branch, not happy with me opening the cage and taking pictures of him.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?

Male, 4 years old, 4 years in my care.

• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?

Not handling. About once per month I open the cage and let him out around it when it's sunny, but he comes out and most of the time in by himself.

• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?

Crickets, sometimes worms. Every other day. I had trouble getting crickets at the local shop for the past 4 days.
Today he ate 2 giant mealworms and a small piece of cucumber. It looked like he had trouble eating worms, though I would expect him to be hungry and 'attack' them as he usually does.

• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?

Brands:

Dusted each time when feeding.

• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?

Misting system. It rains 5-8 times a day, 30 seconds each time. I do see him drinking every day.

• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?

It's usual/normal. He wasn't tested for parasites.

• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Once he had a bad shed and he lost some spikes/spines on the back, apart from that I never had any issues with him.
I don't know if he's just old or something is wrong.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?

Screen, 2x2x4.

• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?

Reptisun. The light goes off at 8:30-9 pm and starts with the morning sun. He has about 12+ hours of light.

• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?

Approx 26-28C mid and about 32C basking. The lowest overnight temp in the room is set to 15C, so I would assume about the same temperature in the cage.

• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?

About 50%, could be a little higher, I cover the front and the side of his cage to keep him in a less stressful environment.

• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?

No. Plastic/cotton plants + branches to climb on.

• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?

It's a living room and it has AC not too far from it, however, the cage is covered on the side and front so he doesn't see all the 'traffic'. The AC does not directly blow on him (and he's covered on that side anyway). There is also a weather control system that turns off AC in case the temperature goes up.

• Location - Where are you geographically located?

Best city in the world - New York City.

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

Looks pale, low activity, closing eyes during the day like he's sleeping. He didn't look hungry after not eating for about 4 days.

 

[kinyonga]

Do the reptivite or repticalciun have D3 in them?
Why the beta carotene? Herptivite has beta carotene in it. How often and how heavily do you dust with each?

Is the UVB the long linear tube light?

I would recommend real plants since veiled chameleons often munch on them. He is still pooping lately isn't he?

You said..."Looks pale, low activity, closing eyes during the day like he's sleeping. He didn't look hungry after not eating for about 4 days"...these are all indications that something is going on. 4is not old for a male veiled...they can live for over 10 years at least.

 

[se900se]

Do the reptivite or repticalciun have D3 in them?
Why the beta carotene? Herptivite has beta carotene in it. How often and how heavily do you dust with each?

It does. Beta-carotene is Vitamin A. My previous cham needed one so I give it to this one, but very rarely.
I dust almost every time I feed him, since 2016.

 

[kinyonga]

I should have been more specific...do both the reptivite and repticalciun have D3 in them? How often do you use each of the 4 supplements in a month and how heavily do you dust with each?

Beta carotene IS vitamin A ...it's a form called prOformed and cannot build up in the system...however it's not sure if or how well chameleons can convert it into "real" vitamin A. Personally I think veileds can convert it better than panthers for instance...but it's only my opinion. It comes from plant sources.

The other form of vitamin A is prEformed and can build up in the system and lead to health issues. It has names like retinol, retinyl, retinal and comes from animal sources.

Vitamin D3 and vitamin A need to be in balance...they are somewhat antagonistic to each other.
Of course the phos and calcium and D3 need to be in balance for good bone, etc health.

 

[se900se]

Thanks for your response. He seems to look better today!

they can live for over 10 years at least.

I wish it was 100, but it's 6-8 years in most cases, some do 10+.

I should have been more specific...do both the reptivite and repticalciun have D3 in them? How often do you use each of the 4 supplements in a month and how heavily do you dust with each?

Only Reptivite has D3, other supplements don't

and I have already answered:

I dust almost every time I feed him, since 2016.

I dust the cup about once per week with all 3, and I feed 3-4 times a week by placing crickets in the cup and rotating it for a few seconds to dust.

Beta carotene IS vitamin A

That's what I said.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."I dust the cup about once per week with all 3, and I feed 3-4 times a week by placing crickets in the cup and rotating it for a few seconds to dust"...it's recommended that the insects be dusted with a phos free calcium powder lightly at all feedings but 4 a month and on 2 of the remaining 4 days, 2 weeks apart to dust lightly with a phos free calcium/D3 powder and on the remaining 2 days, 2 weeks apart to dust with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene source of vitamin A.


You did say that beta carotene is vitamin A...and I explained further about it. I don't understand why you're doubling up on it by giving it separately as well as in the herptivite.

 

[se900se]

You said..."I dust the cup about once per week with all 3, and I feed 3-4 times a week by placing crickets in the cup and rotating it for a few seconds to dust"...it's recommended that the insects be dusted with a phos free calcium powder lightly at all feedings but 4 a month and on 2 of the remaining 4 days, 2 weeks apart to dust lightly with a phos free calcium/D3 powder and on the remaining 2 days, 2 weeks apart to dust with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene source of vitamin A.

I mix it all together in the cup once per week and put all crickets in the same dusted cup.

You did say that beta carotene is vitamin A...and I explained further about it. I don't understand why you're doubling up on it by giving it separately as well as in the herptivite.

And I appreciate you taking time, but you probably missed when I said thsi:

I give it to this one, but very rarely.

I took him out to feed today and he seemed light and not aggressive, usually, he is pretty aggressive, hissing and look like he can bite the finger off. He ate today one mealworm and a mealworm beetle ( I didn't give him more than these 2). He ate directly from the cup while sitting on the cloth where I placed him. His tongue strike was very slow and weak but he managed to eat both.

 

[Ares05]

What @kinyonga is trying to say is that you aren't meant to supplement as you are doing.

You are meant to dust with plain calcium (NO D3) for every feeding, except 4. Then, every other week (2 times per month) you are going to want to dust with calcium WITH d3, one time/one feeding. Then, you are also going to want to dust with a multivitamin ( Either herptivite or reptivite, make sure neither have d3. No need to use both) one feeding every other week (2 times per month).

Basically you dont need to use that extra vitamin A supplement, and you don't need both multivitamins.

Again, your schedule should be this:
Calcium w/o d3 every feeding.
Once, every other week, use calcium with d3 at one feeding (Twice per month. )
Once , every other week, use a multivitamin (Without d3) at one feeding. (Twice per month.)

Calcium every feeding except 4. One week a d3 feeding, next week a multivitamin feeding, One week a d3 feeding, one week a multivitamin feeding. Alternate.. So on and so forth.

Does this make sense??

 

[Carlton]

OP I'm also confused about your dusting schedule. I suspect there's a language problem making this harder. The way you wrote about it, sounds as if you make a mix of all those dusting products and then dust the feeders with that mix once a week. If that is correct, you ARE overdosing Beta carotene/vitamin D3 and underdosing plain calcium. He needs plain calcium every day. The vitamin dust once every two weeks. Your cham looks very thin and dehydrated too IMHO. He may have a parasite load by this age if he's never been treated for them.

 

[se900se]

What @kinyonga is trying to say is that you aren't meant to supplement as you are doing.

You are meant to dust with plain calcium (NO D3) for every feeding, except 4. Then, every other week (2 times per month) you are going to want to dust with calcium WITH d3, one time/one feeding. Then, you are also going to want to dust with a multivitamin ( Either herptivite or reptivite, make sure neither have d3. No need to use both) one feeding every other week (2 times per month).

Basically you dont need to use that extra vitamin A supplement, and you don't need both multivitamins.

Again, your schedule should be this:
Calcium w/o d3 every feeding.
Once, every other week, use calcium with d3 at one feeding (Twice per month. )
Once , every other week, use a multivitamin (Without d3) at one feeding. (Twice per month.)

Calcium every feeding except 4. One week a d3 feeding, next week a multivitamin feeding, One week a d3 feeding, one week a multivitamin feeding. Alternate.. So on and so forth.

Does this make sense??

It does! But I don't mix beta-carotene with beta-carotene, I wrote that I add 'pure' beta-carotene very rarely (couple times a year), but I do mix both vitamins Herpivite & Reptivite. You can't see it on the photo probably but the calcium jar says 'without d3'. I do not have/use Calcium with D3 but I give the Reptivite with D3 instead and Calcium.

OP I'm also confused about your dusting schedule. I suspect there's a language problem making this harder. The way you wrote about it, sounds as if you make a mix of all those dusting products and then dust the feeders with that mix once a week. If that is correct, you ARE overdosing Beta carotene/vitamin D3 and underdosing plain calcium. He needs plain calcium every day. The vitamin dust once every two weeks. Your cham looks very thin and dehydrated too IMHO. He may have a parasite load by this age if he's never been treated for them.

You got the first part right, I dust a cup once per week with all the dusting products (beta-carotene is tablets, that I pop and spill directly on the insects, but I do that very rarely and do not add Herpivite when I do that). The cup remains dusted approximately through the week, which lasts a few feeds. He eats every other day, so before I give him crickets I put them into the cup and rotate them there so they're all dusted.

I am not a vet, but I assume dusting/vitamins is not the problem since he wasn't introduced to this 'diet' yesterday, but on it for the past 4 years. I'll try to get crickets for him today and feed him less but every day until he gets his strength back.

 

[Ares05]

I would start dusting according to a proper schedule. Just because your chameleon is alive doesn't mean what you have been doing is necessarily correct. Vitamin overdose is a serious thing.

 

[se900se]

I would start dusting according to a proper schedule. Just because your chameleon is alive doesn't mean what you have been doing is necessarily correct. Vitamin overdose is a serious thing.

You're 100% right, it is a very serious thing and this confirms that is probably not the case in my case.
I'll do the adjustments, but again I don't think it has to do with the current situation.

 

[kinyonga]

Something is definitely going on with him if he's sleeping during the day and from the way he looks. Maybe it's time for a vet visit to a good chameleon vet?

 

[se900se]

Something is definitely going on with him if he's sleeping during the day and from the way he looks. Maybe it's time for a vet visit to a good chameleon vet?

Our vet is closed during lockdown that's why I am here .

 

[Carlton]

It does! But I don't mix beta-carotene with beta-carotene, I wrote that I add 'pure' beta-carotene very rarely (couple times a year), but I do mix both vitamins Herpivite & Reptivite. You can't see it on the photo probably but the calcium jar says 'without d3'. I do not have/use Calcium with D3 but I give the Reptivite with D3 instead and Calcium.



You got the first part right, I dust a cup once per week with all the dusting products (beta-carotene is tablets, that I pop and spill directly on the insects, but I do that very rarely and do not add Herpivite when I do that). The cup remains dusted approximately through the week, which lasts a few feeds. He eats every other day, so before I give him crickets I put them into the cup and rotate them there so they're all dusted.

I am not a vet, but I assume dusting/vitamins is not the problem since he wasn't introduced to this 'diet' yesterday, but on it for the past 4 years. I'll try to get crickets for him today and feed him less but every day until he gets his strength back.

If you are combining Herptivite and Reptivite together you ARE doubling the dose of D3 per unit of dust. You are getting some from both products every time you combine them in your cup. Then, once you have mixed them, the vitamins are interfering with each other and degrading over time. FWIW, an overdose of D3 can create symptoms that are similar to MBD even though the metabolic mechanism is slightly different. I don't see MBD-type signs (bent limbs, deformations, etc) but I do see illness.

Whatever. Something is clearly wrong. Your cham shouldn't be looking that depleted at this age. BTW, how old is your UVB bulb? They don't emit the correct amount of UVB indefinitely; after about 6 months of continuous use the bulb needs changing. Without the correct lighting he can't metabolize the vitamins he does get.

Still, what is wrong might not be supplement-related. He's either dehydrated, not eating well or enough in general, or there's something else going on. Almost no muscle mass, sunken casque, sunken eyes. A dehydrated cham won't eat consistently so once again, depleted. He could have a belly full of parasites getting more out of his diet than he is.

 

[kinyonga]

Herptivite doesn't have D3 in it @Carlton....but I agree that there is something going one cause there is a llack of muscle mass, sunken casque, eyes not looking right.

 

[se900se]

If you are combining Herptivite and Reptivite together you ARE doubling the dose of D3 per unit of dust. You are getting some from both products every time you combine them in your cup. Then, once you have mixed them, the vitamins are interfering with each other and degrading over time. FWIW, an overdose of D3 can create symptoms that are similar to MBD even though the metabolic mechanism is slightly different. I don't see MBD-type signs (bent limbs, deformations, etc) but I do see illness.

Whatever. Something is clearly wrong. Your cham shouldn't be looking that depleted at this age. BTW, how old is your UVB bulb? They don't emit the correct amount of UVB indefinitely; after about 6 months of continuous use the bulb needs changing. Without the correct lighting he can't metabolize the vitamins he does get.

Still, what is wrong might not be supplement-related. He's either dehydrated, not eating well or enough in general, or there's something else going on. Almost no muscle mass, sunken casque, sunken eyes. A dehydrated cham won't eat consistently so once again, depleted. He could have a belly full of parasites getting more out of his diet than he is.

Thanks for the insights. I am not sealing the cup and I think there is no overdose of D3. If it would happen, it most likely wouldn't happen 4 years after, but much earlier. I doubt it is supplement-related. The bulb is about 2 months old, I change them every 2-3 months. He does look weak, judging by his tongue-strikes it looked like he didn't eat for months. He drunk and ate a little today. I was able to order crickets today and they suppose to be delivered tomorrow. I'll update on how he eats and his overall condition.

 

[MissSkittles]

Your cham looks very dehydrated, too thin and his casque shape doesn’t look right to me...maybe because of the thinness. Personally, I would try changing his supplements as was suggested above and see if that helps. To help rehydrate him, hornworms are just bags of water...if you can get some. If you feed only crickets primarily, you could also add some roaches, silkworms or bsfl for better nutritional value. Hopefully you’ll be able to get into a vet soon and getting him tested for parasites is always a good idea.

 

[se900se]

Your cham looks very dehydrated, too thin and his casque shape doesn’t look right to me...maybe because of the thinness. Personally, I would try changing his supplements as was suggested above and see if that helps. To help rehydrate him, hornworms are just bags of water...if you can get some. If you feed only crickets primarily, you could also add some roaches, silkworms or bsfl for better nutritional value. Hopefully you’ll be able to get into a vet soon and getting him tested for parasites is always a good idea.

He just ate a piece of cucumber and drunk some water from the mist, I also did some manual misting directly on him and he drunk as well.
I didn't see him sleep today, it's still morning but so far he is not that lethargic. Just in case I ordered new lighting as well and waiting for the food to arrive, hopefully, today.

 

[Ares05]

Okay so are you going to fix your supplements and your supplement schedule as well? Not saying its the exact reason he's ill, but for all you know it could be a contributing factor.