Could dusting his meals be causing him to miss due to a dry toungue?

[Nightshaded]

Leif is a four month old panther chameleon who I adore. I always grab his gut-loaded dubias and drop them in a cup with some "EarthPro-A" to coat them. I grab the roaches by one of their legs using tongs. I do this so I don't hold them too tight and cause stress to his tongue when he pulls them back. This morning he immediately sniped the first one from a decent distance (not too far or near) as usual, but he missed the second and third time. It was like his tongue wouldn't go out far enough. Finally he gave up and rushed up to it and munched down without using his tongue. Now I'm worried. He's also acting strange. Normally he basks all day in a spot under the lamp, but now he's hanging out on some silk leaves that I put on the front of his cage for more privacy. He's pooping every single day and it looks healthy. My question is this: could the powder from his first bug be causing his tongue to become too dry and be causing the missing?

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Ambilobe Panther. I received him August 17th as a Juvenile. Roughly 4 months old at this point.
• Handling - Pretty much never. He's a little apprehensive about me, still.
• Feeding- Dubia Roaches and superworms, both gut-loaded with carrots and organic bee pollen.
  • He will usually eat 3 roaches a day and one worm. I handfeed him with tongs to work on trust.
• Supplements - EarthPro-A (without vitamin D) on every single bug. Flukers with D3 twice a month.
• Watering - Dripper on top. Fogger 2-6am. I hand mist morning and night.
• Fecal Description - Perfect. Nice and white urea. Sometimes there's a little orange, but I'm vigilant on making sure he's well hydrated.
• History - None.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Tall Dragon Stand 24"x24"x48" His enclosure is cleaned every night
• Lighting - Basking bulb: 75W. UVB: T5 HO 5.0
• Temperature - 85 for basking. Top of the cage is always around 72-78. Temperatures drop to 68 at night.
• Humidity - Fluctuates between 45-60% during the day.
• Plants -Three golden pothos, two crotons, and one small pitcher plant (I've been experiencing fungus gnats)
• Placement - In the corner by my kitchen table, which I never use. I guess this would also be considered my living room. I walk past his enclosure whenever I go into my bedroom. I put a towel around the top part of his enclosure at night to prevent any lights from bothering or waking him up.
• Location - Michigan

Current Problem He missed his second and third shot when feeding this morning, gave up, and walked towards the roach and ate it without his tongue. The first shot was fine. He's now not acting like his usual lovable (but dickish) self and has a curled tail. I also worry that he's not eating enough because he hasn't shed since September 7th. Is this normal? Does he look healthy to you guys? Thank you in advance.

 

[jamest0o0]

Missing can be a vitamin imbalance, tongue injury, or eye injury. Do you give him any preformed vitamin a supplements?

 

[Nightshaded]

Missing can be a vitamin imbalance, tongue injury, or eye injury. Do you give him any preformed vitamin a supplements?

I haven't been giving him any vitamin A supplements. I've been gutloading his dubia's and superworms with carrots though. Should I also be dusting his meals with vitamin A supplements? I just checked his "EarthPro A" and it doesn't have it. I just got back from a trip and my mother-in-law (who owns an animal hospital) has been watching him. I wonder if anything happened while I was gone for four days... Admittedly, a couple weeks ago he launched at a superworm and the worm gripped the branch extremely hard. Instead of pulling it towards him, he actually went flying towards the worm, which he then immediately ate. I was worried that it caused an injury, but he was fine the following day when he ate again. I honestly don't know what to think. I'm considering bringing him to the vet...but what honestly can they do? Before this guy, I had a hatchling and it developed a RI. I brought him to the vet and it died.

 

[Kaizen]

To use or not to use PREformed vitamin A (ie retinol) is a complicated question. Carrots, though chalk full of beta carotene, might not be the best gutload choice if you’ve decided to go no PREformed A. This is because carrots are a great source of beta carotene, but at least one study suggests that chameleons might not be able to convert beta carotene into PREformed vitamin A (retinol). The study wasn’t conclusive, but many keepers who have chosen not to supplement with PREformed vitamin A try to offer as many carotenoids as possible—whether by gutload, or dust—in the hopes that one or two of them will fill the role of retinol precursor for chameleons. Now, earth pro A purports to boast an algal component that comprises hundreds of carotenoids, so you might be ok. However, there’s no harm in trying a product with PREformed A for a week, and seeing if that helps. (Please don’t use something like pure retinol, repashy super A or similar at every feeding!). That being said, if a tongue injury is suspected, it doesn’t hurt to see a vet.

 

[kinyonga]

Carrots provide beta carotene...a prOformed source of vitamin A. It's said that some chameleons can't convert it into preformed vitamin A and need a preformed source given to them.
I don't know if roaches can convert beta carotene to vitamin A or not...or if they even need vitamin A. If they convert it then the chameleon would get some by eating them.

 

[jamest0o0]

I had a chameleon that started to miss as well and eventually almost entirely stopped using it. He'd just walk up and bite the feeder and was healthy otherwise.

It may be a good idea to see a vet if it continues. I would also add a preformed vitamin source, it is a good possibility the beta carotene in carrots cannot be converted to vitamin A in chameleons. Preformed sources would be something like human retinol softgels(1 small drop per month on a feeder), or reptivite(dust 1-2x a month).

 

[jamest0o0]

To use or not to use PREformed vitamin A (ie retinol) is a complicated question. Carrots, though chalk full of beta carotene, might not be the best gutload choice if you’ve decided to go no PREformed A. This is because carrots are a great source of beta carotene, but at least one study suggests that chameleons might not be able to convert beta carotene into PREformed vitamin A (retinol). The study wasn’t conclusive, but many keepers who have chosen not to supplement with PREformed vitamin A try to offer as many carotenoids as possible—whether by gutload, or dust—in the hopes that one or two of them will fill the role of retinol precursor for chameleons. Now, earth pro A purports to boast an algal component that comprises hundreds of carotenoids, so you might be ok. However, there’s no harm in trying a product with PREformed A for a week, and seeing if that helps. (Please don’t use something like pure retinol, repashy super A or similar at every feeding!). That being said, if a tongue injury is suspected, it doesn’t hurt to see a vet.

Great explanation! JC why do you say no pure retinol? I have done it on many occasions with absolutely no problems. My Parsons gets supplemented a lot actually and I've never seen any edema or anything negative from it.

I'm not doubting you, just wondering. I know you've read into this stuff pretty well

 

[Kaizen]

Great explanation! JC why do you say no pure retinol? I have done it on many occasions with absolutely no problems. My Parsons gets supplemented a lot actually and I've never seen any edema or anything negative from it.

I'm not doubting you, just wondering. I know you've read into this stuff pretty well

I don’t say “no retinol”...at least I didn’t mean to. I think using retinol in good supplement regime is a perfectly acceptable approach. I have used retinol in the past with no ill effects too. I don’t use it now, but mostly because I want to know if I can go without it. But I’ll be the first to use it again at the first sign of tongue, eye, or skin issues. I admit, I’ve sort of swallowed the “no fat-soluble” koolaid, but only because I’m trying to figure out whether I can tweak my bug husbandry to the point where I don’t need fat-solubles.

 

[Kaizen]

Great explanation! JC why do you say no pure retinol? I have done it on many occasions with absolutely no problems. My Parsons gets supplemented a lot actually and I've never seen any edema or anything negative from it.

I'm not doubting you, just wondering. I know you've read into this stuff pretty well

Oh, I see, sorry...I meant don’t dust five crickets with something like repashy super A (2,000,000 IU ) at every feeding. I didn’t mean don’t use, eg retinol gel caps, by adding a drop every now and then. I’m guessing it’s fine to use a drop of retinol from a gel cap once or twice a month.

 

[Kaizen]

Oh s&it...I should’ve caught this with your pics: Are you using low mounted purple LEDS for your lower plants? If so, keep in mind that a bright purple light below a chameleon might throw off his sight...it’s pretty unnatural to try to tag a bug that is bottom lit in purple.

 

[jamest0o0]

Oh, I see, sorry...I meant don’t dust five crickets with something like repashy super A (2,000,000 IU ) at every feeding. I didn’t mean don’t use, eg retinol gel caps, by adding a drop every now and then. I’m guessing it’s fine to use a drop of retinol from a gel cap once or twice a month.

Ook, I just wasn't sure if I was missing something about it lol. Thanks

 

[Nightshaded]

Oh s&it...I should’ve caught this with your pics: Are you using low mounted purple LEDS for your lower plants? If so, keep in mind that a bright purple light below a chameleon might throw off his sight...it’s pretty unnatural to try to tag a bug that is bottom lit in purple.

To be honest, he NEVER goes down where those lights are. It's just weird that his tongue was fine yesterday, and today he was struggling. The last time I went to the vet I paid $200 for a shot of emergency antibiotics, and he died a couple hours later (which was devastating and broke my heart). I just don't know what a vet could do for this...I'm so conflicted with emotions. I just want what's best for my little guy.

 

[FVcham]

Hi! My chameleon was missing and dropping feeders when I first brought him home and the rate of misses and drops continued increasing a bit as days went on. I took him to a reptile vet and he was diagnosed with a vitamin A deficiency and given a low dose injection and then another one 2 weeks later. His tongue issues are gone and his eyes also look so much healthier. I am in no position to guess or estimate if is the same situation, I just wanted to share my experience with a tongue accuracy issue. I hope it gets better for you!