cross breeding jacksons?

[chendy]

i know this may seem a bit ridiculous but i was just curious what types of chameleons could be breed with a jackson? there was a thread that brought this up with panthers and jacksons (which i know is impossible) but what about different species of horned chams ? is that at all scientifically possible.

 

[jdog1027]

I think that Triceros jacksonii willegensis has been suggested that it may be a result of a crossing of T.j. jacksonii and a T.j. xantholophus. As far as other 'horned' species crossing, I think that it was once believed that Triceros pfeferri was a hybrid of Triceros montium and Triceros quadricornis, but I think that it may have been de-bunked.

 

[Kent67]

"Willegensis" is a naturally occuring form of Trioceros jacksonii jacksonii and is thus not a recognized taxa. Unfortunately (Fortunately?) the only things Jackson's can breed with is each other. T. jacksonii jacksonii x xantholophus occur naturally in the wild but it is doubtful either of those Kenyan subspecies could cross breed with a dwarf Jackson's (T. jacksonii merumontanus).

 

[Lizardlover]

i know this may seem a bit ridiculous but i was just curious what types of chameleons could be breed with a jackson? there was a thread that brought this up with panthers and jacksons (which i know is impossible) but what about different species of horned chams ? is that at all scientifically possible.

The main thing you should take into account is that not all horned species give live birth.

 

[stevie]

i think the are not to be crossed simpel reason the dif of size and litters .jack jack is a really smal one with 3 horns on the female ,merumontanus a litle bigger and the females have one horn and these 2 are not to be crossed with the (lot) bigger xhant ,the females have 3 very small horns ore non at all . the litters of xhants are up to 40 or more youngsters ,i think if a jack jack ore meru has that much young it blows

 

[stevie]

The main thing you should take into account is that not all horned species give live birth.

indeed ,and have other egg care (temp and humidity)

 

[Chris Anderson]

i think the are not to be crossed simpel reason the dif of size and litters .jack jack is a really smal one with 3 horns on the female ,merumontanus a litle bigger and the females have one horn and these 2 are not to be crossed with the (lot) bigger xhant ,the females have 3 very small horns ore non at all . the litters of xhants are up to 40 or more youngsters ,i think if a jack jack ore meru has that much young it blows

Female T. j. jacksonii don't always have 3 fully formed horns and female T. j. xantholophus can have a single horn. Their size difference (T. j. merumontanus are smaller than T. j. jacksonii, BTW) and litter size differences likely have nothing to do with ability to hybridize. As Kent said, T. j. jacksonii and T. j. xantholophus have a naturally occurring hybrid zone.

Chris

 

[eisentrauti]

indeed ,and have other egg care (temp and humidity)

egg care ???

 

[stevie]

egg care ???

other tipe of horned species not jacks

 

[stevie]

Female T. j. jacksonii don't always have 3 fully formed horns and female T. j. xantholophus can have a single horn. Their size difference (T. j. merumontanus are smaller than T. j. jacksonii, BTW) and litter size differences likely have nothing to do with ability to hybridize. As Kent said, T. j. jacksonii and T. j. xantholophus have a naturally occurring hybrid zone.

Chris

so chris wat do you think can they be crossed jack jack and xhantholophus ?
stevie

 

[Chris Anderson]

Stevie,

The reason I don't think clutch size or body size has anything to do with whether or not two subspecies can cross breed is that their body sizes aren't so drastically different that it wouldn't be like a subadult breeding with a large adult of either species and the clutch size is going to be determined by the female of whatever two animals breed. I believe that T. j. jacksonii are able to cross breed in the wild with T. j. xantholophus because they are so closely related and because they coexist in certain parts of their range. Whether or not T. j. merumontanus would be able to cross breed with either other T. jacksonii subspecies is not known for sure but if they weren't, my suspicion would be that it was because T. j. merumontanus is less closely related than the other two subspecies are (based simply on biogeographic distribution), which could result in a larger genetic barrier between them and either other subspecies.

Chris

 

[Mario Vermunt]

Female T. j. jacksonii don't always have 3 fully formed horns and female T. j. xantholophus can have a single horn. Their size difference (T. j. merumontanus are smaller than T. j. jacksonii, BTW) and litter size differences likely have nothing to do with ability to hybridize. As Kent said, T. j. jacksonii and T. j. xantholophus have a naturally occurring hybrid zone.

Chris

The single horn Xantholophus females can have, i think should be noted as a severly degraded horn. (<10mm?)
I ever had a xant female with 3 horns, but also very degraded, 5-10mm maximum i think.

Around 7-10 years ago the Xants imported by a belgium importer differed a lot, from those imported last years which i know. (came from a german importer). Back then all these xants females were more to the yellow/bright green even some with a little blue-ish tint, and these females became/were 200+ grams(not pregnant)/ 35cm. Really large to what i see last years here in Europe.
Imports from last years, seem to my opinion be more green /darker green females(like Jack. Jack female), and typically many seem to be (staying) smaller, but are xants also.

Is there any difference seen between the hawaii population and the ones that arrive here in Europe?

I have heared once that the "farms" isolate a piece of land, put in a bunch of Jacksonii and harvest from there. Could well be that some crossbreeding is then happening as well. Dont know for sure ofcourse, never been there, nor done that ;-)

 

[chendy]

great discussion! thanks for all the in put
your all gentlemen and scholars in my eyes