Different concepts, or substantive consequences?

[Kaizen]

What are the consequences to the hobby if the new genetics project undertaken by Jonathan Hill and Benson Morrill, reveals widespread mixed-locale genetics among the captive population of pardalis?

 

[DocZ]

What are the consequences to the hobby if the new genetics project undertaken by Jonathan Hill and Benson Morrill, reveals widespread mixed-locale genetics among the captive population of pardalis?

I’m not sure of the overall consequences

My guess is that most of the captive population is going to have homogeneous genetics. I would guess most breeders have had very little idea of the genetics of their females for many years. I don’t think this diminishes the experience of the average keeper that buys these Chams

Hopefully our most successful breeders will use this to identify females with fairly certain genetics and pair these with wild (and confirmed genetic) males to keep these genetic lines more pure. This needs to be done while Madagascar wild imports are still available. I definitely thinks there is value in maintaining the genetics found in nature

I bred Aulonocara rift cichlids in the early 90s. Back then I could get wild, locale specific groups fairly easily, even in the middle of the country. Now all you can generally find are mixed breed lots. They are still very pretty and can give a keeper a lot of enjoyment, but they’ve lost a lot of character that used to exist. Wild groups are now much harder to find due to exportation laws, unstable governments, etc.

 

[Kaizen]

I’m not sure of the overall consequences

My guess is that most of the captive population is going to have homogeneous genetics. I would guess most breeders have had very little idea of the genetics of their females for many years. I don’t think this diminishes the experience of the average keeper that buys these Chams

Hopefully our most successful breeders will use this to identify females with fairly certain genetics and pair these with wild (and confirmed genetic) males to keep these genetic lines more pure. This needs to be done while Madagascar wild imports are still available. I definitely thinks there is value in maintaining the genetics found in nature

I bred Aulonocara rift cichlids in the early 90s. Back then I could get wild, locale specific groups fairly easily, even in the middle of the country. Now all you can generally find are mixed breed lots. They are still very pretty and can give a keeper a lot of enjoyment, but they’ve lost a lot of character that used to exist. Wild groups are now much harder to find due to exportation laws, unstable governments, etc.

Is there value in preserving locale purity for captive chams?

 

[DocZ]

Is there value in preserving locale purity for captive chams?

In my opinion yes, eventually they’ll all look the same or they’ll all be some Supra-colored version. That’s not as interesting to me as being able to see them as they exist in the wild, but that’s just me

However, that doesn’t mean that these vivid colored hybrids aren’t marketable, they’ probably are more marketable than having several locale specific lines.

 

[PetNcs]

The project will reveal nothing unfortunately. It is just a bubble.
The basic data set is too small in samples size and too rough that it does not build a real base for ID.
The authors did a quite lousy job, it was only like a students tested whether a method works. Well it works, but with insufficient data, you can do nothing.
The hope to have an ID tool would, based on my deep debates with expert colleagues cost at least 1M USD, so a project with few thousands of dollars is simply a joke.
moreover, the dream of being able to identify what phenotype will have the offspring if interbreeding is due to the complexity of coloraturas change in chameleons an utopia.
I am all for a project that would be meaningful, I am just afraid, the announcement of unreal ambitions will lead just to disappointment and I would not advise to have false hopes into a project which inevitably will fail on the lack of resources.
i am not at all negative. me myself, I would LOVE to have a project like that done. Just jet us face reality.
I will bet with 1000 USD the project will bring nothing useable and will fail before it actually will start...
Who will bid against me?

 

[DocZ]

The project will reveal nothing unfortunately. It is just a bubble.
The basic data set is too small in samples size and too rough that it does not build a real base for ID.
The authors did a quite lousy job, it was only like a students tested whether a method works. Well it works, but with insufficient data, you can do nothing.
The hope to have an ID tool would, based on my deep debates with expert colleagues cost at least 1M USD, so a project with few thousands of dollars is simply a joke.
moreover, the dream of being able to identify what phenotype will have the offspring if interbreeding is due to the complexity of coloraturas change in chameleons an utopia.
I am all for a project that would be meaningful, I am just afraid, the announcement of unreal ambitions will lead just to disappointment and I would not advise to have false hopes into a project which inevitably will fail on the lack of resources.
i am not at all negative. me myself, I would LOVE to have a project like that done. Just jet us face reality.
I will bet with 1000 USD the project will bring nothing useable and will fail before it actually will start...
Who will bid against me?

I understand that it’s likely vastly underpowered to reveal scientifically significant results, but we’re talking about successful hobbyists taking on a problem of their own volition.

I think it’s great, and it’s absolutely a step in the right direction. Since we know that your million dollar study is never going to be funded for chameleons, I think the fact that they were able to “crowd source” thousands of dollars for the project is pretty amazing. And it may make larger studies possible by building off their work

I think it can be harmful to just dismiss this as “a joke”. I think scientists should try to lend support to these sort of endeavors, as it may help lead to groundbreaking research in the future

 

[Kaizen]

The project will reveal nothing unfortunately. It is just a bubble.
The basic data set is too small in samples size and too rough that it does not build a real base for ID.
The authors did a quite lousy job, it was only like a students tested whether a method works. Well it works, but with insufficient data, you can do nothing.
The hope to have an ID tool would, based on my deep debates with expert colleagues cost at least 1M USD, so a project with few thousands of dollars is simply a joke.
moreover, the dream of being able to identify what phenotype will have the offspring if interbreeding is due to the complexity of coloraturas change in chameleons an utopia.
I am all for a project that would be meaningful, I am just afraid, the announcement of unreal ambitions will lead just to disappointment and I would not advise to have false hopes into a project which inevitably will fail on the lack of resources.
i am not at all negative. me myself, I would LOVE to have a project like that done. Just jet us face reality.
I will bet with 1000 USD the project will bring nothing useable and will fail before it actually will start...
Who will bid against me?

Petr, thank you very much for your insights here! You and others will know far better than us laymen about the prospects for this project. However, if the most we learn from this project is that way more data is required, doesn’t the high visibility of the project help the cause of garnering more funding for further data collection? That is, doesn’t the high profile nature nature of the project highlight the need the further research?

 

[DocZ]

Petr, thank you very much for your insights here! You and others will know far better than us laymen about the prospects for this project. However, if the most we learn from this project is that way more data is required, doesn’t the high visibility of the project help the cause of garnering more funding for further data collection? That is, doesn’t the high profile nature nature of the project highlight the need the further research?

Yes

 

[PetNcs]

I understand that it’s likely vastly underpowered to reveal scientifically significant results, but we’re talking about successful hobbyists taking on a problem of their own volition.

I think it’s great, and it’s absolutely a step in the right direction. Since we know that your million dollar study is never going to be funded for chameleons, I think the fact that they were able to “crowd source” thousands of dollars for the project is pretty amazing. And it may make larger studies possible by building off their work

I think it can be harmful to just dismiss this as “a joke”. I think scientists should try to lend support to these sort of endeavors, as it may help lead to groundbreaking research in the future

I tried to explain I am not negative...
The issue is, when hobbyists get on scientific field closer to general biology, they are, especially in herpetology of absolutely great help, however, when they get to such highly specialised field and bring there their enthusiasm but not enough understanding and funding, then it is fair to set realistic expectations and frankly, I consider it very unwise to announce with such weak base such project... it is usually done wise versa: you do it and then you publish your data and then you reveal it to the public. Setting such high unrealistic expectation will harm the reputation of the protagonists when the project fails, which I expect. Saying that I am sorry for the guys, one of which (J) is a good friend of mine...
i wish the boys good luck and in case they need last 5.000 to get their 1M USD, I will sponsor it. But as I understand, they have about this sum and not significantly more.

 

[Kaizen]

I tried to explain I am not negative...
The issue is, when hobbyists get on scientific field closer to general biology, they are, especially in herpetology of absolutely great help, however, when they get to such highly specialised field and bring there their enthusiasm but not enough understanding and funding, then it is fair to set realistic expectations and frankly, I consider it very unwise to announce with such weak base such project... it is usually done wise versa: you do it and then you publish your data and then you reveal it to the public. Setting such high unrealistic expectation will harm the reputation of the protagonists when the project fails, which I expect. Saying that I am sorry for the guys, one of which (J) is a good friend of mine...
i wish the boys good luck and in case they need last 5.000 to get their 1M USD, I will sponsor it. But as I understand, they have about this sum and not significantly more.

I’m headed to bed now, but you raise great points and I’m happy to discuss further!

 

[PetNcs]

Petr, thank you very much for your insights here! You and others will know far better than us laymen about the prospects for this project. However, if the most we learn from this project is that way more data is required, doesn’t the high visibility of the project help the cause of garnering more funding for further data collection? That is, doesn’t the high profile nature nature of the project highlight the need the further research?

This is what I guess the initiators hope for.
I am afraid, it is not the reality.
IN the world nowadays, when we fight CoVid in several vases and when we are not even able to stop humanitarian catastrophes in Ethiopia, Ukraine and Yemen, no-one will invest 1M USD into an insignificant project on chameleons...
Hey, we until now even do not have a full catalogue of the individual local populations to see how they look like and how are their boundaries defined... and this is a project for half year and a budget of 20t USD. We do not even have this!
To rely on the community is also a bid on dead horse. give me one example when something worked... And, how hard it is to get new data through against the mediocrity and passive or ggrressoive resistance... I know what I am fighting against, with all my studies on bee pollen, overfeeding, over hydrating, fog drinking, meaningful UV usage etc... It takes decades to get things through...

 

[DocZ]

I tried to explain I am not negative...
The issue is, when hobbyists get on scientific field closer to general biology, they are, especially in herpetology of absolutely great help, however, when they get to such highly specialised field and bring there their enthusiasm but not enough understanding and funding, then it is fair to set realistic expectations and frankly, I consider it very unwise to announce with such weak base such project... it is usually done wise versa: you do it and then you publish your data and then you reveal it to the public. Setting such high unrealistic expectation will harm the reputation of the protagonists when the project fails, which I expect. Saying that I am sorry for the guys, one of which (J) is a good friend of mine...
i wish the boys good luck and in case they need last 5.000 to get their 1M USD, I will sponsor it. But as I understand, they have about this sum and not significantly more.

I definitely understand and in some ways agree with your perspective, and I didn’t intend to imply that you are being negative.

My thoughts are that it’s great that they’ve taken the initiative to attempt what they’re doing on a very limited basis.

Will there ever be a million dollar study on chameleons for any reason? Probably not. But it’s great to see some of our successful hobbyists bring some attention to an issue in our community

I’m glad you commented on this @PetNcs. It’s great to have someone in the scientific community’s perspective

 

[Kaizen]

This is what I guess the initiators hope for.
I am afraid, it is not the reality.
IN the world nowadays, when we fight CoVid in several vases and when we are not even able to stop humanitarian catastrophes in Ethiopia, Ukraine and Yemen, no-one will invest 1M USD into an insignificant project on chameleons...
Hey, we until now even do not have a full catalogue of the individual local populations to see how they look like and how are their boundaries defined... and this is a project for half year and a budget of 20t USD. We do not even have this!
To rely on the community is also a bid on dead horse. give me one example when something worked... And, how hard it is to get new data through against the mediocrity and passive or ggrressoive resistance... I know what I am fighting against, with all my studies on bee pollen, overfeeding, over hydrating, fog drinking, meaningful UV usage etc... It takes decades to get things through...

Well, you and other pillars of the community know far more than i about the pride and egos that serve as roadblocks to progress. However, I can attest to the fact that I have met and spoken with a number of people in the hobby; and while there certainly are entrenched camps, I find wisdom and experiential knowledge from all sides. With every person I meet in chammunity, I learn how many smart people there are out there, and how much I stand to learn. To me, this suggests that there is hope for a united front. I have no doubt you’ve seen push back and have had to fight against all manner of insanity. This is to be expected given the nature of the world and the dissemination of information (or misinformation). But the willingness for each and every member of the chammunity to set aside pride in the service of progress is all that stands between keeping the hobby and losing it. Exports will end, and that’s probably a good thing. The question is whether we want to have a hobby after that happens. If the hobby is worth preserving, and we are to have a chance of making a go of it, important people like yourself could help a lot by working together and supporting one another’s endeavours.

 

[MissSkittles]

The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.
Lao-tzu

 

[Kaizen]

The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.
Lao-tzu

Love

 

[PetNcs]

Well, you and other pillars of the community know far more than i about the pride and egos that serve as roadblocks to progress. However, I can attest to the fact that I have met and spoken with a number of people in the hobby; and while there certainly are entrenched camps, I find wisdom and experiential knowledge from all sides. With every person I meet in chammunity, I learn how many smart people there are out there, and how much I stand to learn. To me, this suggests that there is hope for a united front. I have no doubt you’ve seen push back and have had to fight against all manner of insanity. This is to be expected given the nature of the world and the dissemination of information (or misinformation). But the willingness for each and every member of the chammunity to set aside pride in the service of progress is all that stands between keeping the hobby and losing it. Exports will end, and that’s probably a good thing. The question is whether we want to have a hobby after that happens. If the hobby is worth preserving, and we are to have a chance of making a go of it, important people like yourself could help a lot by working together and supporting one another’s endeavours.

I am definitely on rhe side of support and cooperation!
Thank you for the wise words, I can sign every single one, my respect