dystocia in live-bearers?

[sruli]

My female Jackson's dropped 7 pups last Thursday. Is it possible that she is still retaining?

She seems fine, she eats.

The male and female have been housed together since long before I received them, and seem to be thriving.. The male has been "putting the moves" on the female since the day after she birthed. Whenever I have observed, she swats him away, and he is surprisingly obedient, tolerant, patient. ("Not tonight dear, I have a headache" etc.) Nothing that could be viewed as dangerous aggression (on the part of either of them). Sometimes, I find them in a position that suggests that they may have just mated.

 

[kinyonga]

Why do you think she may have retained a baby?

 

[sruli]

I was wondering for a few reasons...

Seven is a very small clutch.

And some of what I am reading seems to suggest that this may actually be normal, and there could very well be more inside.

Also, there still seems to be a little "bulge".

If this is normal, how can I tell? And is there anything that I can do to help the ones left inside "ripen"?

Why do you think she may have retained a baby?

 

[chamlover]

My panther just had a total of 33 eggs and it took her almost 4 weeks to lay them all. Long story short for the first 3 weeks she didn't eat anything. Last week, we thought she finally laid the last 3. We couldn't feel anymore and for the first time she started making up for lost time and was eating like i had never seen her do before. 2 days later i found another 2 eggs on the bottom of the cage. I couldn't believe it. Today i saw her in the pot again which got me looking but i am pretty sure she is done. Can you feel any eggs in her belly? Does she let you do that? Mine was so sick she didn't care what you did. Thank god she pulled through and is now happily eating me out of house and home. I think she is working on another clutch.

Debby

 

[sruli]

Ah... no eggs, live-bearers. Frankly, I do not wish to palpate or handle her so soon after dropping pups...

My panther just had a total of 33 eggs and it took her almost 4 weeks to lay them all. Long story short for the first 3 weeks she didn't eat anything. Last week, we thought she finally laid the last 3. We couldn't feel anymore and for the first time she started making up for lost time and was eating like i had never seen her do before. 2 days later i found another 2 eggs on the bottom of the cage. I couldn't believe it. Today i saw her in the pot again which got me looking but i am pretty sure she is done. Can you feel any eggs in her belly? Does she let you do that? Mine was so sick she didn't care what you did. Thank god she pulled through and is now happily eating me out of house and home. I think she is working on another clutch.

Debby

 

[Sepioteuthis]

Yes, it's possible and it can go very unnoticed.

I had a female jacksonii that I got as a CB subadult that supposedly had never been with a male.
After 2 years I discovered that she had been carrying a clutch of slugs and embryos around for more than a year. She never showed any signs of illness, except that she was unwilling to mate. Hindsight being what it is I should have had a vet do an ultrasound much sooner, but since she always seemed perfectly healthy I didn't.
Eventually she got an infection in her abdomen. Even then the vet couldn't really palpate the embryos and would have sent me home with just antibiotics if I hadn't insisted on an ultrasound. I'm not saying this to 'blame' the vet, I have a very good vet. I'm just saying to illustrate how difficult it can be to palpate lifebearers since there is no hard shell around the eggs.
Unfortunately she went down hill really fast at this point and was to weak to undergo surgery.

I know that's a very different situation from yours, but I thin kthe take home message is that if you really think something might a be up, an ultrasound would be the most reliable way to find out of your female is still carrying any babies.

 

[sruli]

Wait - how did she get the infection? And if she is carrying more babies (which now seems likely), what can I do?

Slugs?

And, Oh yeah, aren't they supposed to be ravenous after dropping? I have seen her eat, but not that much...

Yes, it's possible and it can go very unnoticed.

I had a female jacksonii that I got as a CB subadult that supposedly had never been with a male.
After 2 years I discovered that she had been carrying a clutch of slugs and embryos around for more than a year. She never showed any signs of illness, except that she was unwilling to mate. Hindsight being what it is I should have had a vet do an ultrasound much sooner, but since she always seemed perfectly healthy I didn't.
Eventually she got an infection in her abdomen. Even then the vet couldn't really palpate the embryos and would have sent me home with just antibiotics if I hadn't insisted on an ultrasound. I'm not saying this to 'blame' the vet, I have a very good vet. I'm just saying to illustrate how difficult it can be to palpate lifebearers since there is no hard shell around the eggs.
Unfortunately she went down hill really fast at this point and was to weak to undergo surgery.

I know that's a very different situation from yours, but I thin kthe take home message is that if you really think something might a be up, an ultrasound would be the most reliable way to find out of your female is still carrying any babies.

 

[Kent67]

Several authors have reported finding groups of embryos at two or more vastly different stages of development in necropsied females of live-bearing species. I would think that if you get to the point of doing an ultrasound, the size of the embryos might be real important to consider when trying to decide if they are a problem or totally normal.

That's a real bummer about Sepioteuthis' female and has me worried as I've got a couple of nominate Jackson's females that are almost a year old and no idea if a male will ever become available in the future. They are both very round and stout, probably producing some yellow pearls but I'm holding out hope for chameleon parthenogenesis

 

[Sepioteuthis]

Wait - how did she get the infection? And if she is carrying more babies (which now seems likely), what can I do?

Slugs?

Slugs are egg yolks; the live bearer's equivilent of unfertilized eggs.

No idea why my female suddenly developed the infection, maybe her immune system was comprimized by something else.

As for what you can do is your female is carrying more babies, that's for a vet to decide. In my female's case surgery was the only option and the plan was to just remove her uterus with the eggs and embryos. In your case, maybe they can give some oxitocin or whatever that stuff is called to stimulate labor again.

 

[sruli]

Okay... but a lot of what I am reading suggests that this is actually normal, and that perhaps nothing need be done?

Slugs are egg yolks; the live bearer's equivilent of unfertilized eggs.

No idea why my female suddenly developed the infection, maybe her immune system was comprimized by something else.

As for what you can do is your female is carrying more babies, that's for a vet to decide. In my female's case surgery was the only option and the plan was to just remove her uterus with the eggs and embryos. In your case, maybe they can give some oxitocin or whatever that stuff is called to stimulate labor again.