early mbd???

Gdawg79

Gdawg79

New Member
Hello all, I have a 3 month old veiled cham named Max, and I have started to noticed trembling in his first couple of steps he takes. I just wanted to make sure he's not getting that mbd crap. He's eating about 15-20 crickets a day and about 5 large hand fed mealworms. I am dusting the crickets with rep-cal calcium w/D3 and rep-cal herptivite 2x a week. I have him in a 12x18x20 full mesh enclosure right now and am currently awaiting the arrival of his new one which will be 18x18x36. I have real plants in there as well as fake vines. I am using a 5.0 uvb reptiglo bulb and a 60 watt sun glo bulb which keeps his basking spot at 90 degrees. the first step he takes when moving is trembely, after that he has a normal walk. I try to handle him at least 2 a week for 5 - 10 minutes at a time, just so he can get some real sunlight. The pic i have posted is pretty recent, any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
First off do you see any deformations on his legs? Does he ever grab his limbs? Does he fall a lot? What are you gutloading his feeders with? Your dusting schedule is a bit off, you need normal calcium without d3 that you will dust with on most feedings and the d3 and the vitamins will be used 2x's a month each rather than a week. If you already have given each supplement twice a month for each you might consider not giving him anymore until next month and start giving him the d3 and multivitamins every Sunday, making sure you alternate each dusting supp every Sunday. His basking temp is a little to high for his age, should be 85 degrees but 90 is ok for an adult male veiled. I'd keep giving sunlight almost everyday if possible. Take him yo a vet as well and he or she can give him a calcium shot if he does happen to have MBD.
 
Thecham I purchased from a member here showed the same signs. There wasn't any lumps, bumps or deformity. His gait a little shaky and he started to fall.
Guess what?, MBD early stages, don't wait to see if this gets worse. Take him to a vet, learn to give the calcium shots. As mentioned above, there are some supp changes to change. And make sure your 5.0 is linear, nothing spiral. And as much sun as you can.
I am happy to say, my nosy be is making a good recovery, but effort is required, but so worth it
Update us, or feel free to pm me if you have questions!
anne
 
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Citizen Snips said:
Dust every other day with vit d3 and once a week dust with vitamins very lightly.
Click to expand...

This is a bit confusing. I would not dust with vitamins every other day. Stick with the calcium on most feedings, and the d3 and multivitamins twice a month each.
 
Thompson said:
First off do you see any deformations on his legs? Does he ever grab his limbs? Does he fall a lot? What are you gutloading his feeders with? Your dusting schedule is a bit off, you need normal calcium without d3 that you will dust with on most feedings and the d3 and the vitamins will be used 2x's a month each rather than a week. If you already have given each supplement twice a month for each you might consider not giving him anymore until next month and start giving him the d3 and multivitamins every Sunday, making sure you alternate each dusting supp every Sunday. His basking temp is a little to high for his age, should be 85 degrees but 90 is ok for an adult male veiled. I'd keep giving sunlight almost everyday if possible. Take him yo a vet as well and he or she can give him a calcium shot if he does happen to have MBD.
Click to expand...
No deformations I've never seen him fall off any vines or the cage. I am going to get the calcium without the d3 and dust on every feeding from now until i can get him in to see a vet. He is a lot less active than he used to be, might that be a result of not enough space?? I use romain lettuce and flukers to gut load the crickets. Hopefully I'm just being paranoid and can get him better soon. Thanks for all ur replies I'll keep u guys posted on his condition I'll post pix as soon as I figure that out. He also doesn't grab his limbs.
 
Here is some information that pertains to bone health/supplements, etc....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

A wide variety of insects that have been well fed and gutloaded should be fed to it. At that size you only need to feed it every two or three days. Feed it enough that it doesn't get fat (and, of course, doesn't get thin either).

Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium). Not sure how to tell you to dust WC insects if that is what you will be doing.

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.

Here are some good sites for you to read too...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.
 
Thompson said:
This is a bit confusing. I would not dust with vitamins every other day. Stick with the calcium on most feedings, and the d3 and multivitamins twice a month each.
Click to expand...

A young chameleon that is housed indoors needs a good amount of vitamin D3. How is it confusing to dust with D3 every other day and dust with vitamins once a week? Breeder I spoke to said most customers that reported early MBD followed the schedule your suggesting, but it' such a controversial subject it.
 
That is over supplementing with d3. The chameleon is already getting a bit of d3 from his UVB bulb. Also to much vitamins. I would imagine over
Supplementing would probably end up with the chameleon developing gulular edema, correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Yes, over supplementing is bad and so is under supplementing. If you are gut loading with greens high in Vitamin A, then go ahead and dust w/vit A once a month. Also, I hardly think that's to much d3 as I free range my feeders that are very lightly dusted and a lot of that junk gets washed off. Furthermore, I'd rather give my chameleon a steady small supply of vitamins rather than everything once or twice a month. To each his own I guess.
 
I have been keeping chameleons for over 20 years and I do not give my hatchling veileds or panthers extra D3...they get it twice a month lightly dusted on the insects. (Rep-cal calcium/D3) The ones that I've held back have lived long healthy lives with me. I do however grow them at a steady pace and not in a rush like some people do.
 
kinyonga said:
I have been keeping chameleons for over 20 years and I do not give my hatchling veileds or panthers extra D3...they get it twice a month lightly dusted on the insects. (Rep-cal calcium/D3) The ones that I've held back have lived long healthy lives with me. I do however grow them at a steady pace and not in a rush like some people do.
Click to expand...

how do you grow them at a steady pace, and not rush them?
 
I feed them as much as they will eat in a couple of minutes once each day and leave a couple of crickets in the cage for a snack rather than feed them multiple times. I keep their temperature in the cage in the low 80's without too much gradient in temperature throughout the cage. This seems to make them grow fairly slowly and steadily.

Growing them too quickly makes it hard for the bones to keep up and can lead to MBD if you don't keep the supplements up with the growth. IMHO its easier to do it this way and I haven't had an issue with MBD in a hatchling chameleon for years.
 
kinyonga said:
I feed them as much as they will eat in a couple of minutes once each day and leave a couple of crickets in the cage for a snack rather than feed them multiple times. I keep their temperature in the cage in the low 80's without too much gradient in temperature throughout the cage. This seems to make them grow fairly slowly and steadily.

Growing them too quickly makes it hard for the bones to keep up and can lead to MBD if you don't keep the supplements up with the growth. IMHO its easier to do it this way and I haven't had an issue with MBD in a hatchling chameleon for years.
Click to expand...

Yay! Im growing mine nice and steady! haha
 
Seems like most of the old timers on here dust with calcium every day, calcium w/ D3 2x/mo and the vitamins 1x/mo. I have been doing that for the 9 years I have been keeping chameleons and the 6 years I have been breeding them. When you are gut loading your feeders you are giving your chams the vitamins they need in the food they eat.

btw, Romaine lettuce doesn't have anything worthwhile in it for your feeders/chams. Better to give them some of the other mentioned greens along with kale. My chams like to eat kale and I clothespin a silver dollar piece on a branch in their cage every other day and usually find it chewed down to a nub quickly.

I have mesh cages for outside that I rotate my crew out so everyone gets a chance to be outside at least twice a week from about 8 am to 6 pm. I use the hose to sprinkle them twice a day so they get plenty of water, probably more then they get in the house. They love it and protest coming in. Natural sunshine is better then D3 in their calcium dustings.

Keep asking questions....
 
kinyonga said:
I feed them as much as they will eat in a couple of minutes once each day and leave a couple of crickets in the cage for a snack rather than feed them multiple times. I keep their temperature in the cage in the low 80's without too much gradient in temperature throughout the cage. This seems to make them grow fairly slowly and steadily.

Growing them too quickly makes it hard for the bones to keep up and can lead to MBD if you don't keep the supplements up with the growth. IMHO its easier to do it this way and I haven't had an issue with MBD in a hatchling chameleon for years.
Click to expand...

You learn something new everyday! I like the idea of growing them slowly as well! Thanks kinyonga, I'll be bumping down my younger chams basking temps.
 
I am pretty sure this is the Kammers reasoning and protocol as well. Liddy has always told me slow and steady. growing to fast indeed is hard on their bones trying to keep up

thank you for adding this to the post
 
I keep the temperatures more even and in the low 80'sF for the hatchlings because their small bodies can heat/cool more quickly than adults can.
 
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