Explaining Common Responses

[jojackson]

More information

While the collective knowhow and experience of this forums members is
comprehensive, many many factors are involved in assessing the right advice for you.
This includes, your species, its age, sex, caging, lighting and other variables, along
with any available history of behaviour, feeding and known health issues.

While your lizards problem might sound like it should be simple to resolve for
a forum of keepers, the first likely reason or solution may not nessarily apply.
For this reason, a members first response is often .more information.
A questionaire for this purpous has been compiled and if completed as
fully as possible, will be referenced by those trying to help you. This can be found
here.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/

While this may seem daunting, it will provide a larger picture for anyone of what might
be happening with your lizard, and thus, a more accurate and helpful response.

My lizards eyes are closed

What lighting are you using

While closed eyes during the day generally mean something wrong, causes can be many.
The first and most common concern, particularly with those new to chams and/or reptiles,
is that certain lighting can have negative effects on your reptile. There are many lighting
options on the market, many of which are sadly not suited to your lizards wellbeing, often
despite being recommended by pet stores.

substrate:

Lose the substrate!

Even if it looks natural, and has never been a problem, the potential for serious problem remains
with its use.
Since most folk here are dealing with chameleons (most of them are highly arborial with some exceptions)
The general thinking seems to be that its both unnesesary and risky (ingestion/impaction)
Though the issue is contentious and often dosent make sense (afterall isnt there substrate in the wild)
Its a matter of erring on the side of caution.

Wild lizards roam freely, generally not remaining in one place constantly. Your captive lizard
however, more specifically, your captive chameleon, lives for the most part, permanently
over just a few square feet of floorspace. Statiscaly the odds of your lizard ingesting substrate
are greatly enhanced for this reason.
Due to the unique specifics of most chameleon husbandry (moving water), substrate is not
recommended since it will get wet and stay that way.
This greatly increases the instance of mould/bacteria which can cause your healthy lizard sickness.

waterbowls/waterfalls

Get rid of the waterbowl/waterfall !

Whats wrong with a waterbowl or waterfeature? Lizards need water right.
Generally speaking , yes.
Firstly, research and captive chameleon keeping experience has shown that most chameleons
do not approach a still water source to drink (with exceptions), but rather appear to be
stimulated to drink by rain showers (simulated by misting) and water droplets dripping from leaves,
just as they would in nature. Hydration is vital for your lizard, it can still dehydrate with a
waterbowl if it dosent drink from it.

The second line of thinking is to avoid the natural bacterial buildup that grows rapidly
(and invisiblely) in waterbowls and features, if not constantly and thouroughly cleaned.
Lets face it, if the water looks clean, and you are tired, you will be less likely to bother
removing, sterilising and so in, most especially with waterfeatures like waterfalls.
For reasons known only to themselves, lizards seem to like defecating into water,
making bacteria a much bigger issue.

Water dripping through your lizards cage can be always fresh and uncontaiminated.
Many chameleons learn to drink directly frim dripper/mister sources.

plants fake and live

Remove cheap fake plants

Whats the harm here? Some species of chameleon, more particularly veiled/yemen and panthers
do tend to enjoy some plant matter in the diet. The risk with some faux plants is
that even chameleon jaws can be strong, a curious lizard may tear and ingest your fake plant,
leading to possibly lethal impaction of its intestines.
Fake plants can look good and provide extra visual security for your lizard, but ensure they are
strong tough plactic types, with leaves moulded from the branch if possible.
Plants with silk leaves will tend to soak up waterdroplets, reducing the opportunity for
your lizard to drink.

Live plants are much preferred, particularly broad leaf varieties (more surface area for water collection
and visual security). Be aware however that while your newly purchased plant may look great,
if eaten by your lizard, may prove lethal. This forum has compiled a 'safe plant list' for you
this may be found here

https://www.chameleonforums.com/plants/

I highly reccomend carefully jotting down the latin (scientific) name of plants you choose,
and carefully matching these to the tag/lable on the plant you purchase, to avoid errors.
Note: many plants have 'lookalikes', almost identical in appearance but have toxic properties.
Some store plants are only labelled with the common name e.g shefflera. Its best to avoid these
as differing cultivars may be toxic.

Safe live plants enhance your lizards enviroment, provide hiding places/security, drinking surfaces,
and aid in increasing ambient humidity aswell.

*I invite other members to add explainations for common responses you can think of. cheers*

 

[SS4Luck]

This is a good idea espicially when all the newb questions get answered good idea

 

[Syn]

It's a good idea, but how many newbies will actually read it before posting? It's like their use of the search button: It exists but is not used for their own benefit.

 

[jojackson]

Well this is true, never the less If continued, it could be a useful reference to those who do bother to research for themselves, and for those who have trouble understanding
why such responses are given.
Providing answers 'do/dont' is one thing, explaining the reasoning behind those answers is often forgotten.

It must be frustrating for a new person, who asks what they beleive to be a simple question, to be bombarded with advice, most of which dosent seem obviously connected to their specific problem.
For example, somebody says, "My cham stopped eating, everything was ok, whats wrong with it?"

They get a barrage of questions like 'lighting' (whats that got to do with it?) 'sex?' (or that?), setup, egglaying bins, etc etc.
Often when such questions arise, I try to narrow down the usual suspects from the info given, ignoring other possibilities or obvious problems with setup for the time being.

Its no use going into how their lighting choice is wrong, or that waterbowls arnt recommended, if they are asking about a problem shedding. Its just distracting. One thing at a time. Our husbandry is complex and alot to absorb at once.
The questionaire is ideal and useful/nessesary, but in terms of member responses, surely we can come up with a better (not so random) approach to helping with questions.

Perhaps a mentor system of some kind could be trialled? Listening and learning from one person is often easier than trying to
listen to/respond to, twenty people all giving seemingly disjointed advice.

 

[Syn]

Well, good luck to this thread. Here's a couple things I find common on this forum:

Waterfalls (waterbowls)
Fake plants
Bad (poisonous) plants
Not the correct dusting plan (varies per species)
edible vs. non-edible..

Can't really think of much else off the top of my head.

 

[frankie-gush]

I'll give this thread a big thumbs-up

Edit - Just seen that JoJackson covered what i put in his later thread d'oh

 

[SS4Luck]

Well, good luck to this thread. Here's a couple things I find common on this forum:

Waterfalls (waterbowls)
Fake plants
Bad (poisonous) plants
Not the correct dusting plan (varies per species)
edible vs. non-edible..

Can't really think of much else off the top of my head.

+1, those were alot of the questions i asked before i got Reptar when i got on


we should push for a stickie, it will be worthwhile in the end and when all the no info posts are deleted. Not saying anything against anyone posted, but i know as newbs, no more than the first post gets read once BS/un info posts are in

 

[ragebudul]

I'll give this thread a big thumbs-up

Edit - Just seen that JoJackson covered what i put in his later thread d'oh

They get a barrage of questions like 'lighting' (whats that got to do with it?) 'sex?' (or that?), setup, egglaying bins, etc etc.
Often when such questions arise, I try to narrow down the usual suspects from the info given, ignoring other possibilities or obvious problems with setup for the time being.
__________________
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[laurie]

Dan you really are a champ. For all the good advice you share on this forum you should have a room full of chameleons!!!

 

[Pure]

Great Post Dan.

 

[jojackson]

Sorry, some kind of posting glitch, didnt appear and thought Id fluffed it, made again and then the first appeared.
*shrug*

 

[jojackson]

So what do you folks think of the newby mentoring idea?
Do you have any suggestions how it could work?
Any input Brad?

P.S If you want to write another common response explaination that you may think of, please post it here and I will edit & add it to the original post along with your username.
Thankyou for your suggestions and kind words. Let's work together to make our favorite website even better!
cheers

 

[Courtney]

i think its a great idea... not just beginners

 

[warpdrive]

Hi JJ,

personaly, I like the idea behind this thread but I'm not too sure that many of the things said is based on fact.
in other words, while in general we say alot of the same standard stuff, we sometimes loose sight of how to truly help someone based on their needs, not ours.
yet I agree, that we do need to explain why we are giving the advice that we are, we should still not loose sight of just why we are saying what we are.

take for example your thoughts on live plants...
while I agree that live plants are needed, and should be a requirement for all chameleons, your thoughts on fake plants are just that...thoughts, and not facts.
there are 100's, no 1000's of chameleon owners out there that use fake plants with or without live plants and have no problems with chams eating them.
in fact, almost 9 out of 10 breeders I see on this website even use fake plants to raise babys with.

it's like the myth that chameleon keepers should only use wire mesh cages and never any glass...please. who starts this nonsence?

so just how many posts have we seen saying that their cham has been eating fake plants? 1, 2, 30? NONE?
come on now.
yet I'm sure that there will be some rare chameleon that will try to eat everything in his cage, even some plastic plant.
so in that case, the fake plants need to be removed. just like how a rare cham might try to eat the dirt in his plant pots, yet we still place laying bins in our female cages anyway....sure for that rare chameleon it's best to cover up his plants, but should it be a RULE?

to me "HARD RULES" are best left for everything but keeping pets...and this thread while has merit, also screems out "RULES" to me.
also, I sometimes wonder just how much thought goes into some of the advice given here on this forum, and how much is just repeated garbage...???

I sometimes wonder just how many times I see people recamend a plastic sheet behind a cage to help with humidity...and how many of the people saying it have ever tryed it?
after all, a plastic sheet does help prevent humidity from escaping from our wire cages, but 90% of the water splashed on it drips to the bottom and pools up...creating a nice place for bacteria and mold to grow.
cloth towels and wood work so much better in that they not only prevent humidity from exiting our cages, but they absorb all the water and release more humidity as they dry up.
anyone that lives in a realy dry area and trys a towel will agree with me on this...yet I'll see tons of replys to use a sheet of plastic instead, and they are comming from people who are living in very humid areas.

speaking of humidity, just how many of us reply with things like..ADD more plants, and give an extra misting or two?
if by chance you're just trying to bump your humidity from 45% to 50%, then sure, adding an extra plant or two, and/or giving an additonal misting or two might help...but do people realy think that it will work when someone's room humidity is only 15%-20%, and they are trying to bump up the cage's humidity from 30% to 50%? because in most cases it wont.
adding more real plants at this point will only raise the humidity by about 5%-10%, and even if they add tons of extra plants, the humidity will exit the cage faster then it is being produced.
extra mistings does help for a short time, but unlike in a humid room that will help keep the cage wet and keep the humidity high for hours, the dry room will suck away the moisture in an hour or less...mostly less. requiring us to re-mist the cage over and over, thus drowning our plant roots and sufficating our plant leaves (preventing them from breathing).

my point here is that we should be giving people advice on what will work for "THEM" and not what works for "US"...if we can remember that, then the advice we give will truly help that person and not be some repeated garbage that may just not be too helpful at all.

while I agree that we do need to give out simplistic advice for beginers, and the reasons behind them, it should be based on facts and be truly helpful to that person or that chameleon in need...not based on some rules or gosip.

again, I still like the idea behind this thread, but I just wanted to give my 2 cents as well.

Harry

 

[Courtney]

well freakin said...esp about the repeated garbage part.

 

[jojackson]

your thoughts on fake plants are just that...thoughts, and not facts.
there are 100's, no 1000's of chameleon owners out there that use fake plants with or without live plants and have no problems with chams eating them.
in fact, almost 9 out of 10 breeders I see on this website even use fake plants to raise babys with.

My thoughts on that are based on experience, having seen one of my own lizards crap out peices of a cheap faux plant I was using one time. While it wasnt a chameleon,
and fortunately didnt become impacted, its a fact that it can and does happen, and therefore common sense to warn of/be aware of it.
Many fake plants, including the fake marajuana plants Ive seen quite often in peoples pictures here, fall apart quite easily.
I know this because I once decorated a gecko enclosure with them. Heat degrades them, crickets chew them, and they are poorly made to begin with.

Its not too much of a stretch to imagine that folk with veilds who use such plants MAY end up with an impacted lizard.
The thread is entitled 'Explaining common responses' Harry, not 'parroting garbage because you heard it', or 'lets discuss statistics', or even 'what not to tell folk'.

10,000 cham keepers may well use cheap plastic plants and never a concern, but tell that to a new person who's no#10,001
and isnt so lucky. An ounce of prevention Mate. My thinking is that they wouldn't be 'common' responses if there was no sense to them. Often they Are repeated without consideration for the threadstarters circumstances or relevance, I agree, however the idea behind this thread is simply to explain why such responses are so oft touted, and the reasoning behind them. Some may be considered not worth mentioning, in the case of cheap faux plants v's live, I think regardless of statistics, I would like to made aware of such possibilities.

My doctor says 1 in 100,00 arterial stents will blocked up within a year by growth of the arterial wall through the mesh, leading to another heart attack, therefore regular checkups are nessesary. Should he not have bothered with such odds?
Ill give you one guess what happened to bring about my second heart attack.

I understand the gist of your post though.

 

[Courtney]

please correct me if im wrong....When you buy a complete set up, it is hardly ever complete. possibly halfass at best....point is along with the help form to be filled out i think there shoul be a species specific checklist. most petstores gist give the buyer general cham knowlege..which in some cases can cause more harm than good...just a thought

 

[jojackson]

Indeed! I think 'Ignore petstore advice' should be added to common responses along with an explaination.
I think a standard species specific checklist Is a great Idea. Should have a notation on differences for adult/hatchling, male/female aswell as species.
Good thinking!

 

[Courtney]

Hey i may be hard headed sometimes about "feelings" but umm sometimes i have good ideas too i just realized i misspelled just...haha it took me 2+ minutes to realise what i was trying to type. lol forgive me i have been up all night.

 

[warpdrive]

My thoughts on that are based on experience, having seen one of my own lizards crap out peices of a cheap faux plant I was using one time. While it wasnt a chameleon,
and fortunately didnt become impacted, its a fact that it can and does happen, and therefore common sense to warn of/be aware of it.
Many fake plants, including the fake marajuana plants Ive seen quite often in peoples pictures here, fall apart quite easily.
I know this because I once decorated a gecko enclosure with them. Heat degrades them, crickets chew them, and they are poorly made to begin with.

the problem I have with this is not that a fake plant could never be harmful to a chameleon, it's just that even you don't know of it ever happening at all.
while other reptiles may have done this in your presence, we are not talking about other reptiles, we are talking about chameleons.

Its not too much of a stretch to imagine that folk with veilds who use such plants MAY end up with an impacted lizard.
The thread is entitled 'Explaining common responses' Harry, not 'parroting garbage because you heard it', or 'lets discuss statistics', or even 'what not to tell folk'.

so you are saying that warnings about the dangers of fake plants are a common responce and need explaination?
I beg to differ.
there are already not 1, but 2 site sponcers that sell cage kits that have fake plants in them.
I'm in no way saying that they are the best products out there, but they cause no more possable harm then real plants do.

10,000 cham keepers may well use cheap plastic plants and never a concern, but tell that to a new person who's no#10,001
and isnt so lucky. An ounce of prevention Mate.

the same thing could be said about real plants, real and fake vines, real and fake branches...even the garden bendable wire you use for branches and vines could harm a chameleon if he/she rips the rubber off of it and swallows it.
my point is that almost everything we use both inside and outside our cages can harm our pets...it's up to us to be aware of not only the dangers but that we need to be inspecting both our pets and the mini environments we keep them in at least once a day.

so, could that 10,001 person be unlucky with a fake plant? sure.
just like that 10,001 person could get unlucky from a real ficus tree. or a real vine, or a fake vine, or a real tree branch, or a fake tree branch...and so on.

My doctor says 1 in 100,00 arterial stents will blocked up within a year by growth of the arterial wall through the mesh, leading to another heart attack, therefore regular checkups are nessesary. Should he not have bothered with such odds?
Ill give you one guess what happened to bring about my second heart attack.

sorry, I know I'm tired, but what does a medical fact have to do with your "thoughts" on fake plants again?

look, I'm not disagreeing with you, or saying you can't warn others about the danger of fake plants.
what I am saying is that it is not a common responce, regardless that you have explained why you feel the way you do on the subject matter.
it's so uncommon, that this is the first time I've ever seen such a thing here on this forum, and I'm here almost every day.

Harry