F. campani hatched-and other pics :)

[Dooley1]

Yesterday a little Furcifer campani hatched.



Also, my first 6th generation Furcifer lateralis (carpet) hatched a couple months ago.



Here are some quad pics...first is Tylene's boy Nero on breeding loan for the winter...



The girls







Young male lateralis breeder



And some just hatched R. brevicaudatus







Thanks

 

[Chase]

Kevin you're a little baby chameleon factory! I'm happy everyone's campani eggs are hatching. Now let's just get them big!

Chase

 

[frankpayne32]

Great job again with the campani and everything else!

 

[laurie]

Damn Kevin, when your new quads arrive you will have chams everywhere. Guess you will need to start sending me my "selected" chams. (can you say campani??)

 

[little leaf]

congrats on ALL your babies - boy those little pyg stubby tails are sure cute I still can not get over the hatch time of the campani egg !!! lol I think my OCD house cleaning would have made me pitch that egg so glad you kept it

 

[Masked Gecko]

Sweet! Congrats Kevin, good luck with all the babies

 

[jannb]

Kevin, you are so awesome! A big congrats on the baby campani and on your 6th generation carpets. You always do such a great job with your guys. Your quads are looking good too. I love the blue girl.

 

[ponders]

Wow, Kevin. Lots of exciting stuff going on in PA. Guess when the weather is awful, you can have babies brighten your day!

Great pictures, love the quads, of course. That little baby 6th generation carpet is sure giving the stink eye! No respect.

 

[Chris Anderson]

WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, Kevin. I thought it was a well established FACT that you can't hatch F. campani eggs without a diapause?!?! I heard fifth or sixth hand that it wasn't possible and simply won't work:

I stand by the incubation temperatures I posted. As well I know that they are from one of the coldest environments in Madagascar as I stated above. The one thing that won't work is incubating the eggs without a diapause as Kevin said he was doing. The other main problem reported about captive breeding this species was making the captive bred males interested in mating with female Furcifer campani. Reports claim wild caught males never seem have a problem mating with females, while captive bred males just are not interested. That makes them much more difficult to breed than Furcifer lateralis.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Where are you getting this information? Did you determine it for yourself? Did you observe it first hand through another keeper? It is never a good idea to be convinced by second hand information, especially when it comes to the care of rare animals. So many chameleon keeping rules have been broken by people that don't listen to what they have read but learn from what they experience and observe.

Frank

Thanks for posting your experiences. My notes are coming from a Parsonii keeper (anonymous for now) who was breeding Furcifer campani as well. He posted that after much trail and error (along with other European keepers) that the eggs needed a cool/on the cold side incubation and an essential diapause. That stated after that the eggs were not difficult to hatch. However breeding the the captive bred males was difficult due to a lack of desire to want to breed. Thanks for posting your experiences. I have had the not opportunity to look yet however I think there is a CIN about breeding this species?

Jeremy-I'm guessing that diapause will make it more predictable, but it is not necessary for vascularization. I have seen that first hand. There is more than one way to do things. I also have never seen anything mentioning males won't breed, but I doubt a few examples in captivity represent a species.

Necas said the courtship was very slow with these and that gestation was 60 days. I, like Frank, observed extremely quick and unceremonious copulation, and I also had gestation at 25 days, identical to lateralis.

So, we will see. Either way, I know relatively little about this species. I hope some people have success. They are great little chameleons

Kevin

Those are the reports from experienced Furcifer campani breeders that I have heard. If you do not want to go with a diapause that is up to you. However many of these new Madagascar species are known to require diapauses such as Calumma parsonii parsonii and from the reports I have heard Furcifer campani. Much of the trial and error breeding of these new Madagascar species has been done in Europe. We should take some more notes about their accomplishments.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

You can prove whatever you want about a diapause not being required with other species, Kevin (you know, like you've actually done in the past), but who exactly do you think you are not "tak[ing] some more notes about [the] accomplishments [of European breeders]" with F. campani? The nerve...

Chris

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, Kevin. I thought it was a well established FACT that you can't hatch F. campani eggs without a diapause?!?! I heard fifth or sixth hand that it wasn't possible and simply won't work:

You can prove whatever you want about a diapause not being required with other species, Kevin (you know, like you've actually done in the past), but who exactly do you think you are not "tak[ing] some more notes about [the] accomplishments [of European breeders]" with F. campani? The nerve...

Chris

You are MAD about all the Furcifer campani hatching I am happy to be proven wrong. The reports I heard from European breeders all stated that Furcifer campani did require diapauses. It took Kevins eggs 17 months to hatch meaning they could have possibly benefited from a diapause. Regardless progress is obviously being made why are you upset now? I had not even posted on this thread yet?

Congratulations Dooley about hatching out Furcifer campani!!

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Chris Anderson]

You are MAD about all the Furcifer campani hatching I am happy to be proven wrong. The reports I heard from European breeders all stated that Furcifer campani did require diapauses. It took Kevins eggs 17 months to hatch meaning they could have possibly benefited from a diapause. Regardless progress is obviously being made why are you upset now. I had not even posted on this thread yet?

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

I'm definitely not mad about anyone hatching F. campani successfully. I think its great, hope more people do, and that all the offspring do well! I simply do not buy into a lot of the rules people claim about keeping and breeding chameleons in captivity and think people need to be more careful about spreading them. We would be a lot further if people stopped spreading bad information about things they have no experience with.

I think you'll find that Kevin would agree that using a diapause may have helped the clutch along quicker (see post below, which you quoted previously). That said, the end result is the same and we now know beyond a doubt that diapause is not required for this species either, the incubation will simply take longer.

Chris

Jeremy-I'm guessing that diapause will make it more predictable, but it is not necessary for vascularization. I have seen that first hand. There is more than one way to do things. I also have never seen anything mentioning males won't breed, but I doubt a few examples in captivity represent a species.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I'm definitely not mad about anyone hatching F. campani successfully. I think its great, hope more people do, and that all the offspring do well! I simply do not buy into a lot of the rules people claim about keeping and breeding chameleons in captivity and think people need to be more careful about spreading them. We would be a lot further if people stopped spreading bad information about things they have no experience with.

I think you'll find that Kevin would agree that using a diapause may have helped the clutch along quicker (see post below, which you quoted previously). That said, the end result is the same and we now know beyond a doubt that diapause is not required for this species either, the incubation will simply take longer.

Chris

Chris

What are you trying to say the information I posted was to use diapauses as reported? Then you are calling that BAD information then you are contradicting what you are saying your when you agree with Dooley and that diapause may have made the incubation go along faster? Progress is progress we should move past this?!? You still seem Mad.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Chris Anderson]

Chris

What are you trying to say the information I posted was to use diapauses as reported. Then you are calling that BAD information then you are contradicting yourself and saying you agree with Dooley and that diapauese may have made the incubation go along faster? Progress is progress we should move past this?!?

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Jeremy,

I was simply joking around in my original post and drawing attention to the fact that once again Kevin has done a great job of breaking the mold and showing that there is more than one way to do things successfully. This really is not the place to start debating which of your information is bad or not. The quotes are there for people's reference, and I hope anyone searching for information on incubating this species in the future is able to take note that statements saying that incubating the eggs without a diapause "won't work", or that diapause was "essential" and "required" are simply not true. They can make the decision for themselves as to whether this was bad information or not, as well as whether they would like to use a diapause or not.

Chris

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Jeremy,

I was simply joking around in my original post and drawing attention to the fact that once again Kevin has done a great job of breaking the mold and showing that there is more than one way to do things successfully. This really is not the place to start debating which of your information is bad or not. The quotes are there for people's reference, and I hope anyone searching for information on incubating this species in the future is able to take note that statements saying that incubating the eggs without a diapause "won't work", or that diapause was "essential" and "required" are simply not true. They can make the decision for themselves as to whether this was bad information or not, as well as whether they would like to use a diapause or not.

Chris

Chris

Just joking? Good to hear PhD's have a sense of humor. Saying what is bad or good information is another thing though. These are a Forums though. We should post all pertinent information and decide what information we want to keep for whatever solution to whatever problem we want to solve after it has been posted. However that means posting all pertinent information and saying people should not post notes from European breeders is not a joking matter. Happy holidays.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Chris Anderson]

Chris

Just joking? Good to hear PhD's have a sense of humor. Saying what is bad or good information is another thing though. These are a Forums though. We should post all pertinent information and decide what information we want to keep for whatever solution to whatever problem we want to solve after it has been posted. However that means posting all pertinent information and saying people should not post notes from European breeders is not a joking matter. Happy holidays.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Jeremy - I never said anywhere that we should not post pertinent information about the experiences of others, so don't put words in my mouth. I am saying, however, that one should not fail to clearly represent information as second hand from the start when it is, that one should not double down on that information as gospel and outright reject other opinions when they have no experience to the contrary, and that one should not talk down to other breeders who have more experience than they do on a topic when they are questioning such absolute statements. Sharing pertinent information you have read, been told, experienced, or heard is definitely important. Keeping that information in perspective and presenting it in a fair and balanced way is just as important. Failing to do so or resorting to some of the previous cases, however, fails to accurately represent the information and would definitely qualify as giving bad information in my book. Now, if you'd like to discuss this more, I would be happy to do so with you in a new thread, or one of your own that is relevant (perhaps the thread where I quoted all these comments from?). This thread, however, is not the place.

Kevin - Congrats again on hatching this species. I'm happy to see all your hard work come to fruition, and hope the baby does well for you. I'm also glad to see you adding to our understanding of the requirements of this and other chameleon species in captivity by showing that some of these previously held requirements are not necessarily as absolute as previously thought!

Chris

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Chris

You keep trying to twist things to your head and keep saying whatever you need to say to make right inside your head with the end result of someone being a bad guy. I stated in my post my notes were from European breeders and even put Dooley, Nick and Frank in contact with one of the keepers from Europe. That is clearly not failing to state where some of recent my information about Furcifer camapni is coming from. That is not bad information. There has been other baby Furcifer campani that have recently hatched with a diapause however you being hell bent on labeling people BAD shall remain anonymous.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Jeremy - I never said anywhere that we should not post pertinent information about the experiences of others, so don't put words in my mouth. I am saying, however, that one should not fail to clearly represent information as second hand from the start when it is, that one should not double down on that information as gospel and outright reject other opinions when they have no experience to the contrary, and that one should not talk down to other breeders who have more experience than they do on a topic when they are questioning such absolute statements. Sharing pertinent information you have read, been told, experienced, or heard is definitely important. Keeping that information in perspective and presenting it in a fair and balanced way is just as important. Failing to do so or resorting to some of the previous cases, however, fails to accurately represent the information and would definitely qualify as giving bad information in my book. Now, if you'd like to discuss this more, I would be happy to do so with you in a new thread, or one of your own that is relevant (perhaps the thread where I quoted all these comments from?). This thread, however, is not the place.

Kevin - Congrats again on hatching this species. I'm happy to see all your hard work come to fruition, and hope the baby does well for you. I'm also glad to see you adding to our understanding of the requirements of this and other chameleon species in captivity by showing that some of these previously held requirements are not necessarily as absolute as previously thought!

Chris

 

[rshewfel]

Jeremy - I never said anywhere that we should not post pertinent information about the experiences of others, so don't put words in my mouth. I am saying, however, that one should not fail to clearly represent information as second hand from the start when it is, that one should not double down on that information as gospel and outright reject other opinions when they have no experience to the contrary, and that one should not talk down to other breeders who have more experience than they do on a topic when they are questioning such absolute statements. Sharing pertinent information you have read, been told, experienced, or heard is definitely important. Keeping that information in perspective and presenting it in a fair and balanced way is just as important. Failing to do so or resorting to some of the previous cases, however, fails to accurately represent the information and would definitely qualify as giving bad information in my book. Now, if you'd like to discuss this more, I would be happy to do so with you in a new thread, or one of your own that is relevant (perhaps the thread where I quoted all these comments from?). This thread, however, is not the place.

Seriously, why do you waste your time? You can't win an argument with a person who is incapable of understanding what the argument is even about.

 

[Masked Gecko]

Even if it did take Kevin as long as it did to incubate his eggs Ithink we can all agree that he did a heck of a job on not givin up on them and being succesfull at the end. Did you even know about the diapause when you started incubating your eggs Kevin? I had a trio of these guys, and I sure didn't even after the months I spent trying to even get some basic info.

 

[kdc5019]

Way to go Kevin!! Hopefully our little campani can have "play dates" in the future =]

 

[Dooley1]

Even if it did take Kevin as long as it did to incubate his eggs Ithink we can all agree that he did a heck of a job on not givin up on them and being succesfull at the end. Did you even know about the diapause when you started incubating your eggs Kevin? I had a trio of these guys, and I sure didn't even after the months I spent trying to even get some basic info.

Thanks everyone!

Yes, I knew about the diapause. I also figured it would just take longer if I didn't use it. I had too many lateralis eggs to make room in an incubator to cool down just a few campani eggs. If I start to work with this species in the future on a more serious level, I will probably diapause artificially so I can hatch them faster.

You can hatch carpets with a diapause. You can hatch them without. I have done both. Of course, when I started breeding them everyone told me I "needed" to use one. Luckily, I had learned from another breeder that was not true. Like Chris said, there's more than one way to do things, and it's not a good idea to suggest one has to do something a certain way or it won't work...kind of like the myth that chameleons need to be kept in screened cages versus glass.