Fact or fiction ( you decide) covering soil

[Chameleopatrick]

There seems to be some misunderstanding in this forum regarding the covering of soil (dirt)In your habitats. Did you know children in Africa eat soil? Do you know that dirt just tastes awful but they do it anyway? Know why?

Minerals and micronutrients.

Captive chameleons eat soil and sand because they are in need of nutrients that they are not getting in your care. It's because of the diet you provide that the chameleons go to the bottom of the cage eat soil. Often times chameleons will target the perlite used in commercial blends of potting soil, chewing it up and swallowing it to find another piece to do it again.

In 1996 I started covering my soil with sandbox washed sand. I also started breaking very small pieces of cuttlebone (not sharp) and sprinkling it, leaving it on top of the sand for the chameleons to come down and eat. My panthers, veilds, quads, wiedersheimi, carpets, Elliot's all ate the sand cuttlebone combo.
Sometimes just sand most of the time the cuttlebone. Over time I noticed the chameleons went to eat sand and less and less.

Covering your soil deprives the chameleon of what they seem to do and need naturally. Covering soil blocks them from attaining critical micronutrients.

Your chameleon is eating soil for a reason, know what the reason is.

I see a lot of people (acting like experts) telling noobs to cover their soil with rocks big enough that the Cham can't eat. That is just plain ignorance.

 

[coldbloodedAL]

I dont even bother, Id need a helluva lot of rocks to cover all the soil in my glass terrariums anyway. The reason it is recommended is so peoples chams dont become impacted. Imo chams dont become impacted from eating soil, it happens because of improper temps, and too large of feeders..

 

[Chameleopatrick]

Imo chams dont become impacted from eating soil, it happens because of improper temps, and too large of feeders..

And dehydration primarily.

 

[JonRich]

I'm 100% sure that they eat it for the nutrient value. The reason i feel most people say to cover it is (1) the impaction risk, if you have soil that's mixed with mulch, sticks, bark, small stones, etc. (2) if you did not go organic and you soil may contain pesticides or other harmful chemicals.

If you have Organic loose soil free of larger particles then i don't see the need to cover and it may benefit your cham to have a taste now n then. I think as a precaution it's just better to advise to cover.

You solved this by covering the actual soil with washed play sand. The cuttlefish bone is your way of supplementing Cal, do you not dust with a Cal?

What's your take on wood-chip substrate?

PS: Parrots in th Amazon eat clay to use as a buffer for some of the toxic seeds they ingest.

 

[Action Jackson]

Well said and I agree.

I think some concerns are if the Chameleon deficates onto the soil and the soil is constanlty moist or wet from overwatering It might not be so good to eat. Any sticks or bark may pose some serious problems if eaten. Also if you don't know whats in your soil i.e. fertilizers and what not i think it would be best to cover the soil.

I think I'd freak out if I saw my Chameleons eating perlite. I'm guessing it wouldn't be a problem for you perspective?

 

[Chameleopatrick]

Well said and I agree.



I think I'd freak out if I saw my Chameleons eating perlite. I'm guessing it wouldn't be a problem for you perspective?

I sure didn't like the fact they were attracted to perlite, however it didn't appear to have a negative effect. That is the sole reason I went with cuttlebone. My thought was they were trying to address a calcium defencency (my thought only, no facts to back that statement).

 

[Chameleopatrick]

You solved this by covering the actual soil with washed play sand. The cuttlefish bone is your way of supplementing Cal, do you not dust with a Cal?

What's your take on wood-chip substrate?

PS: Parrots in th Amazon eat clay to use as a buffer for some of the toxic seeds they ingest.

I add supplements to one cricket for each chameleon hand fed with a multivitamin 2x per month.

Wood chips look great but probably is the most likely substrate to hide feeders and harmful bacteria therefore I would never use it.

 

[JonRich]

I add supplements to one cricket for each chameleon hand fed with a multivitamin 2x per month.

Wood chips look great but probably is the most likely substrate to hide feeders and harmful bacteria therefore I would never use it.

So you only add supplement to one cricket 2x a month? In other words you only suppliment 2x a month and the rest of the time is unsupplemented feeders?

You see no risk with the woodchip substrate aside from a bacteria farm and a good hiding place for feeders?

I sure didn't like the fact they were attracted to perlite, however it didn't appear to have a negative effect. That is the sole reason I went with cuttlebone. My thought was they were trying to address a calcium defencency (my thought only, no facts to back that statement).

so you realized the perlite wasn't a risk AFTER eaten.. Lucky you huh?

 

[tkilgour]

You raise a good point chameleonpatrick. If they are eating soil / sand then they are likely not getting the proper nutrients needed. A little dirt never hurt anyone. However, like jonrich said the key factor is Organic Soil. If your soil is loaded with fertilizers, bark, pellets and moist from over watering and loaded w/ your chams feces it could become a problem. If you are giving your animals a balanced diet and the proper supplementation you shouldn't have a soil / sand eater.

 

[Chameleopatrick]

So you only add supplement to one cricket 2x a month? In other words you only suppliment 2x a month and the rest of the time is unsupplemented feeders?

Yes but my feeders consits of gut loaded;

Crickets, hydei fruit flies, bluebottle flies, wax worms, roaches, meal worms, wax moths, walking sticks and small silk worms.


You see no risk with the woodchip substrate aside from a bacteria farm and a good hiding place for feeders?



so you realized the perlite wasn't a risk AFTER eaten.. Lucky you huh?

Very lucky....

 

[JonRich]

Very lucky....

lol. So because of what i stated above. I choose to either not have any substrate or cover with rocks.

I personally will not allow my Cham access to a plant unless it has been repotted and has sat out inside and has been exposed to at least 3-4 showers from a hose and 1-2 heavy rain falls. (hard to do this in the winter) lol

Off topic for this thread, but i do agree with your thoughts about watering too much. As long as your humidity levels are good and stable, which is hard to do in a screened cage and especially in the dry winter months.

I water wayyyyy less in the form of mistings in my ExoTerra, but i do dripp a steady 6-7 awake hours to make sure the Cham has access to drinking water.

 

[DekuScrub]

you say its natural for them to eat soil to supplement their diets as many organisms do. BUT the captive environment most keepers have their chameleons in isnt all that natural.

"If your soil is loaded with fertilizers, bark, pellets and moist from over watering and loaded w/ your chams feces it could become a problem."

the plants i get usually have the fertilizer pellets, i just cover the top with a layer of compost from the back yard.

the level of moisture is a big concern to me it virtually never drys complely.

i get rid of the feces if visible on the leaves or on the floor but otherwise its either fertilizer or hermit crab food.

with that said i dont cover my soil, never have. i plant spider plants and moss (if i dont have enough spider plant babies) in the base of all my potted plants as ground cover.

if theyre eatting fine, clean soil that drys out regularly i see little problem with that. its just that in most circumstances the soil is going to be overly moist and potentially rancid with feces.

 

[JonRich]

i get rid of the feces if visible on the leaves or on the floor but otherwise its either fertilizer or hermit crab food..

you keep hermit crabs in your enclosure?

 

[Chameleopatrick]

you say its natural for them to eat soil to supplement their diets as many organisms do. BUT the captive environment most keepers have their chameleons in isnt all that natural.

"If your soil is loaded with fertilizers, bark, pellets and moist from over watering and loaded w/ your chams feces it could become a problem."

the plants i get usually have the fertilizer pellets, i just cover the top with a layer of compost from the back yard.

the level of moisture is a big concern to me it virtually never drys complely.

i get rid of the feces if visible on the leaves or on the floor but otherwise its either fertilizer or hermit crab food.

with that said i dont cover my soil, never have. i plant spider plants and moss (if i dont have enough spider plant babies) in the base of all my potted plants as ground cover.

if theyre eatting fine, clean soil that drys out regularly i see little problem with that. its just that in most circumstances the soil is going to be overly moist and potentially rancid with feces.

By never, and I mean never, leaving chameleon waste in my habitats for more than 12 hours have eliminated almost all eye and mouth infections. Habitats that have residue waste allow the feeders to spread bacterial after walking on it everywhere. Hermit crabs add to the biological and bacterial load and is only an idea for the novice keeper. If you have so much waste that you soil is rancid you may want to update your husbandry practices.

 

[Murrdox]

I agree that some animals and humans will eat dirt on an instinctual level if they are not getting enough mineral nutrients.

However, at the same time, I don't think it's something to be encouraged. It's not like keepers should make sure that dirt is available to their chameleons to eat. I think if your chameleon is eating dirt, he's eating dirt to try and compensate for something that is wrong with his diet in the first place.

I've never caught any of my chams eating dirt, and I've never had any issues with supplements with any of them. I don't actively discourage them from eating dirt by putting rocks down on the plants or anything like that... but if I thought for a second my chameleon WAS eating dirt, I'd ask myself what I was doing wrong.

 

[Chameleopatrick]

I think if your chameleon is eating dirt, he's eating dirt to try and compensate for something that is wrong with his diet in the first place.

That's almost exactly what I said in the opening post.

I'm not encouraging eating minerals from dirt, but, for whatever reason many chameleons do it while many others do not.

However, intentionally taking the option away to use sand or fine organic soil, while using live plants of course, just further limits any possible benefit that the animal instinctively try's to compensate for.

 

[DekuScrub]

you keep hermit crabs in your enclosure?

yeah i had a previous thread and i spoke about why, whats taboo. cagemates specifically.

heres a link https://www.chameleonforums.com/cage-mates-taboo-77595/

ive had my crab somewhere around 14 years (so he could be in his 20s by now). he loves the screen and poop. dont get me wrong i offer him fruits and veggies, which he enjoys, but poop is one of his favorites XP

and from the thread above if you decide not to read it

"i have had 2 of killers (the crab) cage mates tested for parasites after long term exposure or bunking, when it came to my attention that contracting parasites was a threat"

and now in regards to your response patrick, i was not bashing you so dont get so defensive. and if you werent being defensive, my fault, it just came across like that.

but now its my turn to get mildly defensive

in fact questioning the "standard protocol" of chameleon keeping is exactly what youre doing. and thats fine by me. why wouldnt it be (im the one with a crab in one of my cages)? if you dont diverge from the standard no one learns anything.

i think eating soil is fine if its sanitary and fine enough to be digestible (in moderation). but under most circumstances its questionable. i think one of the reasons the stigma of "cover your soil" is perpetuated is becuase its easier to explain to new keeper complications can and will arise out of allowing them to eat soil than explaining the intricacies of how and under what circumstances it would be okay to allow them to consume soil. ie. keep it dry, and why, use organic soil or fresh compost and why, make sure there are no additives or large pieces and why ect.

its easier to be safe than sorry. conveying the extensive amount of information required to keep a chameleon in the first place is hard enough without having to talk about dirt.

now you said "If you have so much waste that you soil is rancid you may want to update your husbandry practices." in response to my saying "its just that in most circumstances the soil is going to be overly moist and potentially rancid with feces."

potentially. the majority of waste i see is either removed, pushed under the soil with an index finger or left under foliage for my crab to find (and thats only in the one cage) i was referring to other keepers and not myself.

and you said "Hermit crabs add to the biological and bacterial load and is only an idea for the novice keeper." oh is that a fact? so you think its a good idea for novice keepers pursue? (or are you suggesting what i think) it seems such an endeavor would be quite the opposite, only to be considered by experienced keepers. just like allowing your chameleons to consume soil should only be considered by people that understand the risks. not everyone understands the risks.

with that said i agree chameleon keeping should not be so cookie cutter. i mean even looking at some of the enclosures and husbandry practices posted on here on a regular basis chameleon keeping is obviously not. however perpetuating certain husbandry practices not only helps new keepers be sucessful but it also helps seasoned keepers in regards to explaining the basics.

"I've never caught any of my chams eating dirt, and I've never had any issues with supplements with any of them. I don't actively discourage them from eating dirt by putting rocks down on the plants or anything like that... but if I thought for a second my chameleon WAS eating dirt, I'd ask myself what I was doing wrong." AGREED

and so in response to the topic of your post patrick "Fact or fiction ( you decide) covering soil" my decision is. it depends.

 

[ataraxia]

"I've never caught any of my chams eating dirt, and I've never had any issues with supplements with any of them. I don't actively discourage them from eating dirt by putting rocks down on the plants or anything like that... but if I thought for a second my chameleon WAS eating dirt, I'd ask myself what I was doing wrong."

Quote above is spot on.

To the op: If your chameleons are eating soil, sand or cuttle bone. Im sure it is from the lack of proper supplemented vitamin delivery from you as the keeper. Dusting one cricket twice a month, i see the logic that chameleons dont truly need the whole lot of feeders dusted but if you are experimenting why not try two crickets at a feeding and so on until the quest for soil consumption is obsolete? I see that you take care of the "POO" in the cage within 12 hours. Now what about the urates that soak into the soil, sand or cuttlebone?

All of my female cages have exposed soil and sand. I also have never seen them eat it either. Maybe from the fact that i dust the whole lot of feeders also.

 

[Chameleopatrick]

I see that you take care of the "POO" in the cage within 12 hours. Now what about the urates that soak into the soil, sand or cuttlebone?

Excellent question.

If you set up your enclosure in the right way, your chameleons will typically pass waste in the same general area, usually near a basking sight or after a heavy drinking session. Since I don't use soil or sand everywhere, only in pots or planters. I almost never, if ever have to remove urates from the planters. I do clean urates and waste from the bottom the habitat with an isopropyl alcohol soaked paper towel.

Perhaps chameleons eating soil or sand is more common than you think.

 

[ataraxia]

If you provide your chameleon with "Proper nutrition" they will not have the need to search for it within the environment you have provided. Guaranteed.

Soil consumption is not "rare". It happens to many keepers. Those keepers should re evaluate the nutrition they are providing their animal.

Soil is not a great place to find minerals/nutrients. Back in the old days or in third world countries, ok. With all that we have today i see no need to step backwards or even lower the level of care when it is not needed.