Fog?

jamest0o0 said:
honestly I would consider your 2 and 3 combined results normal care
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This is how I’m now are keeping the K. Boehmei and time will tell if it works. Honestly I almost try to think rational and I dislike over clinical behavior. I just don’t live and follow that principal. It’s with humans the same, the ones that mostly get sick and / our get strange diseases, are the ones living steriel. Never seen hobo’s get sick from living on the streets and eating from trash cans. It’s the same with animals, primarily we are all made for survival and adaption. And yes, this all it bit bluntly, but you get my point.
I’m definitely with your point of view.
 
Sonny13 said:
This is how I’m now are keeping the K. Boehmei and time will tell if it works. Honestly I almost try to think rational and I dislike over clinical behavior. I just don’t live and follow that principal. It’s with humans the same, the ones that mostly get sick and / our get strange diseases, are the ones living steriel. Never seen hobo’s get sick from living on the streets and eating from trash cans. It’s the same with animals, primarily we are all made for survival and adaption. And yes, this all it bit bluntly, but you get my point.
I’m definitely with your point of view.
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Funny you mention being same with humans, I typed out something very similar and then deleted it because I figured I rambled on enough haha. Lots of caffeine!
 
jamest0o0 said:
JMO incoming...

I think we overthink all of this... I have fogged, I've had solid side enclosures, I have not fogged with loads of misting and high or low humidity, I have free ranged with fog, I have free ranged without fog, but misted, I have had Panthers and Parsons(veiled too years ago)... you get the picture... I rarely clean anything unless it gets nasty or looks like it needs cleaning. I have never had a cham with an RI or any health problem. Definitely could be luck, but I also think there is a major thing at play with all of us... we don't stress our chameleons out! By stress, I mean true, harmful stress. Day in and day out stress. Which chams always come here with RI and whatever else? Terribly obvious poor husbandry chams... diet off, lighting off, no plants, sitting on the floor, whatever. When everything is right I don't think it matters much if you fog or mist. Personally, i am skeptical of the warm temp+humidity being all that bad. Many people, myself included, have chams that do well in our hot and humid summers. IMO ventilation is the important aspect. @Sonny13 honestly I would consider your 2 and 3 combined results normal care. I wonder if this is part of the reason why free ranged chameleons seem to do so well, or outdoor kept. Kind of like with fish tanks, more water volume, better water quality... usually. I also wonder if air purifiers would help at all...

@CasqueAbove you bring up a lot of good points, but I can't help but say, it's funny how you're skeptical of these scientists?, but buy into necas pretty fast. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of what necas taught us, but he's pretty unscientific at times as well... THE ANSWER IS THIS BECAUSE I SAID, I HAVE HAD CHAMELEONS FOR 3 MILLION YEARS.
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I know you don’t like Petr lol. But my point is I don’t think this is by scientists. It reads more like propaganda. They don’t give any facts or proper back information. Like what kind of housing, how often they fog. None of it. Further they acknowledge the benefits but says don’t because you can’t clean? Also the Fogger they showed is a waterfall type. So we don’t really know what they are saying. So it’s not the facts as they give little.
caging is a big one. This is Europe so are we talking heated glass enclosure or screen. It is a big difference.
So it is the article I don’t like. Especially because there is some true in there that could be useful if additional facts were given. They just state at the end hard to clean so don’t do it.
So I don’t believe this is written by any kind of researchers. Just too many holes. I wish it had details. If it is a vet why don’t they have numbers? Many out of lots is not a percentage. I wish they would have real numbers. And how the fog was used. If their numbers aren’t 60% or greater then there would be no evidence of danger.

so I don’t discount everything they just don’t give much real information . Their logic comes down to “hard to clean.”

Plus I am with you. I a healthy environment the bacteria is not an issue. Only with bad husbandry is it an issue.
 
Sonny13 said:
Talking about wind and air movement, it has been tested with T. Hoehnelii



i have done very rigirous experiments with other montanes: T. hoehnelii
At identical conditions, we had three control groupsnof babies from same clutch:

1. “Normal” husbandry with right temps and night fog and feeding standard way with calcium, little MVT, and UV
2. 1. With pollen
3. 1. With simullated wind (ventillator intermittently)
4. 2 and 3 combined

best results: 4
Second: 2
Third: 3
Last: 1.

More than halfnof the babies in group 1 died within first theee months, due to RI, they developped gular oedema, mouthrot

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/oops-kinyongia-boehmei.173893/page-3. Post #53
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This is great. You just gave more usable info than the article.
We forget how stuffy a room can get with no air movement. It can only be worse in a cage, even screen.
Even in arboreal Tarantulas the are seeing the benefits from better ventilation. The tree tops are a unique environment.
 
Sonny13 said:
This is how I’m now are keeping the K. Boehmei and time will tell if it works. Honestly I almost try to think rational and I dislike over clinical behavior. I just don’t live and follow that principal. It’s with humans the same, the ones that mostly get sick and / our get strange diseases, are the ones living steriel. Never seen hobo’s get sick from living on the streets and eating from trash cans. It’s the same with animals, primarily we are all made for survival and adaption. And yes, this all it bit bluntly, but you get my point.
I’m definitely with your point of view.
Click to expand...
I apply the same logic. We do our best to recreate. Natural is not sterile. We don’t need every gizmo and gadget to keep them healthy.
Fogging is something I see as a benefit for some but not right for all. Location, natural temp and humidity will all play a part.
 
CasqueAbove said:
I know you don’t like Petr lol. But my point is I don’t think this is by scientists. It reads more like propaganda. They don’t give any facts or proper back information. Like what kind of housing, how often they fog. None of it. Further they acknowledge the benefits but says don’t because you can’t clean? Also the Fogger they showed is a waterfall type. So we don’t really know what they are saying. So it’s not the facts as they give little.
caging is a big one. This is Europe so are we talking heated glass enclosure or screen. It is a big difference.
So it is the article I don’t like. Especially because there is some true in there that could be useful if additional facts were given. They just state at the end hard to clean so don’t do it.
So I don’t believe this is written by any kind of researchers. Just too many holes. I wish it had details. If it is a vet why don’t they have numbers? Many out of lots is not a percentage. I wish they would have real numbers. And how the fog was used. If their numbers aren’t 60% or greater then there would be no evidence of danger.

so I don’t discount everything they just don’t give much real information . Their logic comes down to “hard to clean.”

Plus I am with you. I a healthy environment the bacteria is not an issue. Only with bad husbandry is it an issue.
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No no, don't get me wrong. I'm actually more of a petr fan than you might think. I just feel on some things he insists obedience simply because of his credentials, but that's another discussion. I mostly agree with and apply what he's taught. As for the article, I don't disagree with what you're saying at all, just was pointing that out. A lot of times you see scientists that have these attitudes of being correct all the time.
 
I think petr said he doesn't even bother cleaning his foggers and hasn't had issues. I clean mine if they look dirty, otherwise I don't. It's probably not an issue in most cases. Wc/sick/old chams might be a different story.
 
Jeez, how has anyone ever kept these poor animals alive in captivity at all? :eek:

I don't use a fogger. As it happens, I'm caught in a catch 22. The only way I can get the temp low enough to run a fogger is if I run the mister at night to lower the temperature, and that raises the humidity high enough that the fogger isn't needed. 🎻 🤷‍♂️

kinyonga said:
@summerseeking how clean are the tubes in your misting system?

Pseudomonas aeriginosa grows well at 37C but can grow from 4C to 42C....BTW.
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Does Pseudomonas aeruginosa grow underwater? What—besides chameleon lungs—does it live on, and how much humidity does it require? Do we know what does/doesn't kill it? Rhetorical questions; my point being there are other variables involved than just temperature (even if I don't know what they are—which I don't).

We're all screwed; something's going to get us all—one way or another.
 
Sonny13 said:
For my enclosure I got 24/7 two pc fans running, just above bottom level, blowing air inside the enclosure. Especially with the fogging, I don’t want any stagnant air build-up.
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summerseeking said:
I’ve been thinking about adding pc fans. Thanks for this post.
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I would have them draw air through the enclosure rather than blowing into it. (JMO)
I'd rather create a gentle air change than a wind.
 
Klyde O'Scope said:
I would have them draw air through the enclosure rather than blowing into it. (JMO)
I'd rather create a gentle air change than a wind.
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True, what you’re saying. However in both cases the airflow is minimum with the fans I use. In principle it just moves the air and doesn’t really give a wind effect. The cooling fans on the other hand, they really create a wind effect.
 
jamest0o0 said:
Personally, i am skeptical of the warm temp+humidity being all that bad.
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I’ve been thinking about this, trying to understand it. We mist and create humidity with temps in the 70’s but we shouldn’t fog with temps above 67? I understand they are different modes of creating moisture…I’m not sure how to word this because the subject is confusing…but either way the air is moist whether the temps or in the 70’s or below 67 and the Cham is breathing it. It doesn’t make sense to me 100%.
 
summerseeking said:
I’ve been thinking about this, trying to understand it. We mist and create humidity with temps in the 70’s but we shouldn’t fog with temps above 67? I understand they are different modes of creating moisture…I’m not sure how to word this because the subject is confusing…but either way the air is moist whether the temps or in the 70’s or below 67 and the Cham is breathing it. It doesn’t make sense to me 100%.
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Along with chameleons living outdoors in warm, humid areas
 
Lindasjackson said:
Wow, I don’t know what to think either way!
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It’s all confusing. @Sonny13 post was impactful for me. I’ve been thinking for a while that ventilation is key.

I watched a YouTube video about a beardie breeder in Florida that only uses outdoor enclosures. Blew my mind! My first thought was how aren’t these babies dying from RI. They talked a lot about the importance of ventilation.

I currently run fans but today I decided to jump in head first lol. I ordered computer fans…gonna add them to my enclosures to pull air out. We shall see. My goal is to create environments that need little to no maintenance, environments that just work. We shall see 🤞🏽
 
We do have to remember that our tiny environments that we have created for these beautiful reptiles are nothing compared to living in a tree in the huge wilderness of Africa. Yes there are bacteria there but your not concentrating it down to a 2x2x4 enclosure. That’s why it works and they’re healthy in their natural environment. You put them in a tiny enclosure and start blowing humid air into a warm environment and it makes sense that the bacteria count would explode!
 
Lindasjackson said:
We do have to remember that our tiny environments that we have created for these beautiful reptiles are nothing compared to living in a tree in the huge wilderness of Africa. Yes there are bacteria there but your not concentrating it down to a 2x2x4 enclosure. That’s why it works and they’re healthy in their natural environment. You put them in a tiny enclosure and start blowing humid air into a warm environment and it makes sense that the bacteria count would explode!
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This is what makes me wonder about fogging in captivity. There's no doubt it's a natural thing in the wild...but that doesn't mean it's the best thing or that it works in captivity because the parameters are different both in the way we provide it and in the way the cages are set up in the first place...and there are likely a few other contributing factors too.
 
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