Help! Vieled Cham not eating after laying and very weak

[JACKG]

I'm very concerned about our 1 year old vieled chameleon as she looks weak, hasn't ate for days and looks dark and skinny after laying.

We thought she was pregnant and put a laying bin (bucket) but she wouldnt go into it, however she would go to the bottom of the cage which was unusual for her. Then we noticed a couple of eggs but she was still acting strange (and not really eating much) and it was clear to us she wanted to dig but for whatever reason was not going in to the bucket.

We decided to change the laying bin for a different one so I took her out whilst the Mrs put a different laying bin. The next day she spent all day and night in the bin and we believe she has dug a tunnel, layed eggs and covered them up.

Questions:

She has returned to her normal basking spots but is clearly weak, not eaten for days but does drink. She is moving about but I feel she isn't as 'steady'. What can we do?

Also when should we take the eggs and bin out? Iv read that it might be a good idea to leave the bin in but just take the eggs out. At the moment we have just left it as we wanted to get her back eating before changing anything in the cage to avoid stressing her out.

Your Chameleon - Vieled Translucent. approx. 1 year old, female. Our first chameleon, been in our care 5 months.

• Handling - Rarely, took her out when we first got her and once recently to put the laying bin in.

• Feeding - Mainly locust and worms, we also put kale / butternut squash.

• Supplements - not sure, white calcium powder from pet shop as recommended.

• Watering - Spray warm approx. 3 times a day and also has a dripper.

• Fecal Description - Not tested.

• History - Generally shy, was a little skinny anyhow and doesnt tend to like things being moved to much in her cage.

• Cage Info: approx 120x 50 x55cm. Mesh

• Lighting - UV light and a heat light.This was purchased from the pet shop that specialises in reptiles.
• Temperature - Not checked.We put the light and heat from 9am - 9pm every day.
• Humidity - Not tested, regular sprays.
• Plants - Mainly fake plants but a couple of small plants in cage.
• Placement - In living room, on a small table approx. 60 cm off the floor.
• Location - Manchester, UK.

 

[Nursemaia]

Laying takes a lot out of them as far as energy and depletion of calcium. You're "not sure" of her supplements which leads me to believe you haven't been supplementing her correctly. She needs a UVB bulb not just a UV light, and you don't know her temp or humidity levels which are critically important for optimal health. I can't tell from the pic because it's not a good one of her but she probably has MBD

 

[JaguarShark]

It sounds like she has had a difficult first laying, there are many possible reasons. From what you say (being first cham, not sure of many details ) I would guess perhaps because she has been 'well fed' (greedy females when making eggs lol) she has probably laid a lot of eggs. I think she will get back to normal if treated well.
It is much too early to suggest mbd in my opinion, nothing really hints at that.


Anyway, you have come to the right place to get more detailed information about how to look after her. Pet shops do not give much detail, but will tell you which product to buy. Now you can learn about why, and if they were right. UK pet shops usually are better than US ones (from what I read on the forum).

Here is a great caresheet to look at and see if there is anything you can improve on right now - https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/caresheets/veiled/

I would agree with leaving the laying bin in there for a few more days, like you said she may get annoyed with too much fussing, and may even still want to lay more (unlikely, but possible).

 

[JACKG]

Thanks for the replies- it is a UVB light and a heat light and it is the set up as advised per the pet shop.

The pet shop is not big chain and they specialise in reptiles so have followed the advice given - also had a look at a few things here too.

She was skinny when we got her but put on weight and was doing well until she became pregnant. The Mrs sorts a lot of her care so sorry for being a little sketchy on some details but happy to find out and answer specifics.

Ideally just need to find a way to get her eating again.

The pictures ain't great / I'll try n do some others tomorrow.

 

[ZacharyLeesWife]

What are you offering her?

 

[kinyonga]

Are those photos ones that were taken after the laying???
Is the heat light a red light?
Can you post a photo of her right arm and also one of her from the side please. I'm concerned about the elbow.
I'm concerned about the supplements and the fact that you don't know the temperatures and I would take the bin out and quickly dig up the eggs to make sure she has laid them and to see how many she laid then put the laybin back in the cage quickly. Please let me know what you find.
Also...what do you feed/gutload the insects with?

 

[JaguarShark]

What are you offering her?

I would assume mainly locusts and worms (as said in op).
I like your thinking though - try offering something different to spark appetite if still no eating in a couple of days, right?

I didn't notice the elbow at first, now it's mentioned I zoomed in and it does look like it's swollen.
If it's like it looks then you might have a real problem actually.....

 

[ZacharyLeesWife]

Her legs look to be in awful shape. If she's in late stages of MBD, she's probably not going to eat. How big was her clutch?

 

[Andee]

Flies and moths are usually the easiest things for most chameleons to break hunger strikes with so those are often recommended. However I do not think that's what she needs. She does not look like she did well with her first lay at all. In my opinion females should eat within 24 hours of laying if they are doing well. You absolutely must increase your misting times at the moment. She needs a huge amount of water at the moment. I would recommend misting for at least 15 minutes a session. I would strongly suggest taking her to a reptile vet. Most females, especially veileds, are ravenous after laying. It is also the easiest way to get the supplements they need replenished back into their body.

Once again vet is what I think is needed.

 

[ZacharyLeesWife]

Flies and moths are usually the easiest things for most chameleons to break hunger strikes with so those are often recommended. However I do not think that's what she needs. She does not look like she did well with her first lay at all. In my opinion females should eat within 24 hours of laying if they are doing well. You absolutely must increase your misting times at the moment. She needs a huge amount of water at the moment. I would recommend misting for at least 15 minutes a session. I would strongly suggest taking her to a reptile vet. Most females, especially veileds, are ravenous after laying. It is also the easiest way to get the supplements they need replenished back into their body.

Once again vet is what I think is needed.

My girl did a terrible job laying her first time around, but she still came out of her hole starved to death. I'd be suspicious of any girl that doesn't. Her legs need scanned.

 

[Nursemaia]

I thought her legs looked bent in those pictures too but wasn't sure. They aren't the best pictures of her and details are hard to see on my phone. I'm glad others see it too. I highly suspect MBD and imo just because you bought her from a local reptile store doesn't mean they gave you good information. How old is the uvb bulb. They have to be replaced every 6 months

 

[Andee]

I am not sure about MBD, it is likely very possible. The elbows look concerning but I can't see them well enough to say with (What I think is swelling) is related to MBD. I would love some more side shots of her, and head shots. Side shots first because those are easier to get without stressing her, and the last thing you want to do at the moment is stress her just for a picture. The only thing I would consider worth stressing her for is the vet trip. My gut instinct is something is wrong and it will either cause severe issues ahead of time if she pulls out of it at the moment, or (which I am more likely to lean toward this one) she is not going to pull out of it without some vet intervention.

 

[JACKG]

Hi this is Sharron Jack's partner.

We didnt buy our chameleon whose now named Rosie straight from the reptile shop.The man we bought her off about 4 months ago couldn't look after her anymore. He said that she had already layed infertile eggs, so this is her second clutch. I have just removed the laying bin and counted 18 eggs but noticed a fresh one on the floor this morning. I have put the laying bin back in her cage as i think she may still have eggs to lay as 19 eggs seems a small amount.

We gutload her locusts with Kale and dust them every few days with calcium powder as recommended from the reptile shop she was originally bought from and also provide them with water using a sponge to keep them hydrated.She sometimes eats mealworms gutloaded with cucumber, Kale and has eaten butternut squash, but she hasn't eaten in days now which is a concern.

Rosie's right leg is swollen what should we do any help/advise please. If it is MBD can this be treated easily and would she make a full recovery?

The red light is a heat light and the bulbs were replaced a few months ago.

I have taken a few photos of her and her setup but as i'm not very good with computers i'll get Jack to post them later.

 

[JaguarShark]

19 eggs is not unusually small - so I expect that that's all for eggs this time.
Of course your reptile shop sold you an expensive red basking light but a normal bulb will do the same job (its only for heat).
For vitamins it is best to use a plain calcium dust (no D3) every day, and one with D3 once a fortnight.
MBD can be treated but there wont be a full recovery if there is already bone deformation.
You don't know how well she was kept before you had her, but it is important to get your supplements right asap even if this swelling is something else.
It might be an injury from a fall or something else so I also think a vet should take a proper look now.

You have a good basic idea of what is needed to look after her, but more variety in food and gutload would really be much better for her. This website will give a much fuller idea of how to look after her than a pet shop will, so look around at all the resources and information on here for ideas as well as any treatment the vet suggests.

 

[JACKG]

Thanks.

I think we will look at taking her to the vets to get her checked out.

She is still showing no interest in her food and she has been right next to a locust for ages but doesn't seem interested in eating it. I have put some kale and chopped up grapes in to her cage to see if she may eat them. Fingers crossed we can get her back to her normal self soon.

 

[JACKG]

Hi,
Iv added another photo where you can see her legs and body better.

The red heat lamp obviously has an effect but hopefully will allow for a more informed judgement.

It looks to me that she still has eggs at the bottom of her body.

Id also say that her top right elbow does look swollen but her limbs look straight and not like the MBD pictures Iv seen here.

She has always been very shy and lacking confidence and very particular with food. We have been patient and eventually she has occasions let us hand feed but as said she is seems to be shy and nervouse (at least thats my perception).

What exact food would you recomend we try and how exactly should we try to give it to her.

Also if you think she still have eggs would should we do next?

My gut feeling is she is just very weak (must be nearly a week without food), perhaps we can look at ways going forward to improve her diet but obviously want her to get through this.

Thanks Guys

 

[Andee]

The swelling bothers me. It's not a typical way mbd causes swelling from what I have dealt with. I would be more strongly to think she either has gout in that limb? Possibly? Or she broke it somehow. Which means it could be causing a lot of pain. The rest of her legs don't look great, but they aren't bad enough to where I was to automatically assume MBD, or if she does have it it's not a bad case, because I am almost positive her elbow up above is not swollen just from mbd. I won't touch on food right away in this post. I will do that in the next post I write because it will be rather long. She does look like she eggs still, especially since she is dropping them still, the problem is I am always hesitant to stress out a gravid female with a vet visit, but she needs, she won't make it otherwise. A vet can give a shot to help her with laying. Which if they decide to I definitely recommend bringing her lay bin with her, because she may need it immediately. She also may need surgery. The vet can give her fluids and liquid calcium to give you to get her supplements going, and help her with recovery. They can also do a vitamin combo shot to help with d3 absorption and vitamins that she may be missing.

As far as lighting, lighting at night is a horrible thing for chameleons. If you think it gets too cold (which veileds do fine at 50 degrees at night and benefits from a 10 degree drop) use a cermaic heat emitter only. Otherwise only use a house bulb, and females should only be kept at 85 degrees no higher. Otherwise it could make their egg production more often, also too much feeding could cause this.

I strongly recommend a vet visit, she will not likely make it through this without one.

If it is MBD it can be managed with liquid calcium doses. In the beginning she will likely need some everyday while she is recovering and a lot of bone deformations can get better with time. I end up going down on a maintenance dose with liquid calcium with my MBD cases, especially my females, usually to 2 times a week. Females if they are egg layers, should have it more around egg laying times and after.

(PS ALL TEMPS I MENTION ARE IN FARENHEIT, I will convert later in this post or the one below)

85 degrees- 29-30 degrees celsius
50 degrees- 10 degrees celsius
I don't know how to do the 10 degree drop conversion for celsius? anyone want to help?

 

[Andee]

As far as food, ditch the mealworms, go for smaller super worms, they are healthier and easier to gutload. Locusts are good, you can also go for roaches? Not sure if you get them where you are? Silkworms are amazing, totally recommend them. Try looking into flies to. They are great for breaking hunger strikes if she has anymore down the road that have nothing to do with health problems. You should be able to get stick insects easy so if you want to give them a try those usually go over well. Black soldier fly larvae are a great source of natural calcium. (these are just the few available but should definitely help). Do you have a cup feeder?

 

[kinyonga]

I would get her to a vet ASAP for a shot of oxytocin!!!! This should help her lay the rest of her eggs before she passes the time to lay them.
That elbow needs attention too. I am not a vet but I don't think it's MBD or gout...but it does need attention.

I don't like the red light. It's not natural and i m not sure those dratted red lights are good for anything. I use a regular incandescent household bulb of a wattage that produces the right temperature for the basking spot. There should be no light at night as was already said.

Because the insects we use as feeders always have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorous it's important to dust at all the feedings with a phosphorous-free calcium powder but the two a month that you dust with a phosphorous-free calcium/D3 powder and the two when you dust with a vitamin powder that has a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A .

I suspect that she could be short of calcium even though the arms are straight. Do you have any liquid calcium sandoz or gluconate? It might help in the egglaying when she gets the oxytocin too.

Jaguar Shark...calcium is a mineral not a vitamin.

As for feeding her it's more important now to get her to the vet right away!!!!!

 

[The_cheeseycham]

I'm very concerned about our 1 year old vieled chameleon as she looks weak, hasn't ate for days and looks dark and skinny after laying.

We thought she was pregnant and put a laying bin (bucket) but she wouldnt go into it, however she would go to the bottom of the cage which was unusual for her. Then we noticed a couple of eggs but she was still acting strange (and not really eating much) and it was clear to us she wanted to dig but for whatever reason was not going in to the bucket.

We decided to change the laying bin for a different one so I took her out whilst the Mrs put a different laying bin. The next day she spent all day and night in the bin and we believe she has dug a tunnel, layed eggs and covered them up.

Questions:

She has returned to her normal basking spots but is clearly weak, not eaten for days but does drink. She is moving about but I feel she isn't as 'steady'. What can we do?

Also when should we take the eggs and bin out? Iv read that it might be a good idea to leave the bin in but just take the eggs out. At the moment we have just left it as we wanted to get her back eating before changing anything in the cage to avoid stressing her out.

Your Chameleon - Vieled Translucent. approx. 1 year old, female. Our first chameleon, been in our care 5 months.

• Handling - Rarely, took her out when we first got her and once recently to put the laying bin in.

• Feeding - Mainly locust and worms, we also put kale / butternut squash.

• Supplements - not sure, white calcium powder from pet shop as recommended.

• Watering - Spray warm approx. 3 times a day and also has a dripper.

• Fecal Description - Not tested.

• History - Generally shy, was a little skinny anyhow and doesnt tend to like things being moved to much in her cage.

• Cage Info: approx 120x 50 x55cm. Mesh

• Lighting - UV light and a heat light.This was purchased from the pet shop that specialises in reptiles.
• Temperature - Not checked.We put the light and heat from 9am - 9pm every day.
• Humidity - Not tested, regular sprays.
• Plants - Mainly fake plants but a couple of small plants in cage.
• Placement - In living room, on a small table approx. 60 cm off the floor.
• Location - Manchester, UK.

Is she walking around