Help with Humidity Levels

[jslost]

Hi All. First off, many thanks to this forum and all the users for lots of support and tips I've been able to obtain, including on the current build we have for our veiled named Speedy.

I completed a custom build about 2 months ago and so far so good, but I've been having issues getting the humidity up when needed and didn't expect that problem given the type of enclosure. If anything I thought it would get too humid but that happened and if anything it's going the other direction. I suppose that's good in a way but at the same time I need to make sure the levels are correct at night, etc..

Attached are a few pictures of the enclosure, and here's a general summary of the enviro factors.

-Lighting is a 24" UVA/B strip, basking lamp, and plant light.
-Air vents are installed 2x on the bottom and 2x at the top.
-1x small fan is pulling air from behind the top right vent
-1x small fan is pushing air from behind the top left vent
-A humidifier is piped into two ports at the bottom to send in fog.
-A fish tank pump is inside the humidifier water chamber which runs to an irrigation system that pumps from the top down, into each planter and with 2x random drippers. I did have to significantly decrease the watering since the lower planter was getting too filed up with water (there are manual drains which I've used).

So far after about 2 months everything has been going pretty good, cham seems happy and healthy. The humidity levels have a hard time getting up past 80 so I'd supplement with some random spraying. I have noticed in the past 2-weeks, potentially due to temp changes (our heater is running mroe now?) that the humidity levels have dipped significantly and I can't get it up past 72-73. I did notice recentely a couple of his top scales held their shed which has worried me a bit so I wanted to check in here with the community to see if anyone had any recommendations how I might be ablet to get it higher, ideally without constant manual spraying.

You will note that I do not have a misting system which was intentional and the result of lots of reserach that indicated it may not be necessary for a veield at this age. I fully realize opinions may be mixed on this, and expect lots of responses may indicate that a misting system could help solve the humidity issue.

As mentioned above, the biggest surprise to me so far on this build has been that I can't get the humidity levels up, even with the fogger going for 15-20 minutes it won't pass 80, even in the lower part. Somehow the enclosure is letting a lot out, which is good, and somewhat by design, but I did think it would retain more given there is no screen on the sides.

Thank you for any help and constructive critisism Cheers.

 

[ERKleRose]

Hi there, and welcome on here! You’ve got a gorgeous cham and a gorgeous cage! Although, I’ve got a few questions, and there are some adjustments that need to be made to the cage

Is your substitute bioactive with a clean up crew? If so, you need to completely cover the soil with leaf litter; if not, you need to take all of the substrate out (the soil can grow bad bacteria that gets out of hand if the clean up crew isn’t there to keep things running) and make sure your drainage system keeps standing water out of the cage

The Exo Terra vines you have in there are actually a health hazard to chameleons. The debris they shed off can get caught in a chameleon’s eye. You can replace them with real vines, Fluker’s Bend-A-Branch (their fake vines without leaves on them) fake vines, and/or branches

For your branches, there aren’t enough, and they are thick, which is fine, but not when they’re the only branches in the cage. You need to add thinner branches all throughout the cage, preferably with differing diameters (anywhere from ones your cham can fully wrap their paws around to ones he’ll only being able to grasp halfway around)

There also isn’t enough plant cover for your cham to hide in/behind to feel safer and to help with different microclimates within the cage so the chameleon has options for different pockets of temps and humidity

Lighting is a 24" UVA/B strip, basking lamp, and plant light.

What strength uvb bulb do you have? Since this is a diy cage, do you have a Solarmeter 6.5 to measure uvi levels? Also, how far away is your heat bulb from your cham’s basking branch?

Air vents are installed 2x on the bottom and 2x at the top.

Pardon me if I just can’t see what’s in plain sight, but where are the bottom vents?

1x small fan is pulling air from behind the top right vent
-1x small fan is pushing air from behind the top left vent

Are the fans blowing into or out of the enclosure?

A humidifier is piped into two ports at the bottom to send in fog.

You’ll want the fog to be at the top so it can roll down. When are you using the humidifier, and is it cool mist or warm mist?

So far after about 2 months everything has been going pretty good, cham seems happy and healthy. The humidity levels have a hard time getting up past 80 so I'd supplement with some random spraying. I have noticed in the past 2-weeks, potentially due to temp changes (our heater is running mroe now?) that the humidity levels have dipped significantly and I can't get it up past 72-73. I did notice recentely a couple of his top scales held their shed which has worried me a bit so I wanted to check in here with the community to see if anyone had any recommendations how I might be ablet to get it higher, ideally without constant manual spraying.

The humidity levels are way too high during the day, they should be between 30-50%. The nighttime humidity levels depend on the nighttime temps and amount of airflow in the cage. What are your nighttime temps? Does your cage get enough airflow in it from the bottom to the top and then out (aka the chimney effect)?

High humidity during the day is very dangerous, as high temps and high heat can lead to respiratory infections
Chameleons are dry shedders, so keeping them wet can lead to retained shed. They shed best when the humidity levels are kept the same as the rest of the time

You will note that I do not have a misting system which was intentional and the result of lots of reserach that indicated it may not be necessary for a veield at this age. I fully realize opinions may be mixed on this, and expect lots of responses may indicate that a misting system could help solve the humidity issue.

Chameleons need their cages to be misted, strictly fogging is not enough. They need to be misted at around lights on and off, for a minimum of 2 minutes (you can mist longer, too) each time, as that is how long it takes for their drinking response to kick in. A dripper can go during the day to offer more hydration opportunities without raising humidity. You can also mist throughout the night in short spurts, as well. You don’t have to worry about a late afternoon misting, as your humidity levels aren’t lower than recommended

I know this is a lot to take in, and I’m sorry for that, but if you could also fill out the husbandry form (let me know and I’ll post it), we can help make sure the other aspects of your husbandry are at 100% to keep your little guy healthy and happy for a very long time!

I also have some helpful links for you to read through to better understand your chameleon’s care!
https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-husbandry-program-getting-started-with-chameleons/
https://chameleonacademy.com/veiled-chameleon-care/ his basking temp (how do you measure it) can be lower, between 80-85*F, and the feeding amount depends on his age
http://www.muchadoaboutchameleons.com/2012/04/how-to-set-up-proper-chameleon.html

 

[jslost]

Hi. Thanks so much for this feedback! Here goes as much information and response as I have at the moment.

Is your substitute bioactive with a clean up crew? If so, you need to completely cover the soil with leaf litter; if not, you need to take all of the substrate out (the soil can grow bad bacteria that gets out of hand if the clean up crew isn’t there to keep things running) and make sure your drainage system keeps standing water out of the cage

Yes, bio with cleanup crew. Will add more leaf litter, thanks for the tip! I did put a small rock dish that captures some water (just in case the need for an emergency drink), but if you think that's a problem I can take it out. He doesn't go down there often.

The Exo Terra vines you have in there are actually a health hazard to chameleons. The debris they shed off can get caught in a chameleon’s eye. You can replace them with real vines, Fluker’s Bend-A-Branch (their fake vines without leaves on them) fake vines, and/or branches

Thank you for letting me know, will see what I can come up with on this.

For your branches, there aren’t enough, and they are thick, which is fine, but not when they’re the only branches in the cage. You need to add thinner branches all throughout the cage, preferably with differing diameters (anywhere from ones your cham can fully wrap their paws around to ones he’ll only being able to grasp halfway around)

I will try to get more small branches. I am curious though what this accomplishes? The plan is for all the plants to grow (they are only a couple months old).

There also isn’t enough plant cover for your cham to hide in/behind to feel safer and to help with different microclimates within the cage so the chameleon has options for different pockets of temps and humidity

I will see what I can do to improve this, I didn't want to put fake plants and there are already a lot of plants there and I considered the design so that he would have some places to hide. As noted in the last comment, the plan is that the plants, and especially the tree, will grow more and provide additional cover. I tried to not overdo it as far as what's inside but can add more elements to create more hiding spaces. He doesn't seem to try to ever hide though but does go hang half way down here and there which seems like part of him regulating things.

What strength uvb bulb do you have? Since this is a diy cage, do you have a Solarmeter 6.5 to measure uvi levels? Also, how far away is your heat bulb from your cham’s basking branch?

It's a ReptiZoo Desert 10.0. I went with this size based on research/recommendations because of the height. I don't have a solarmeter but used the card that had come with the bulbs and it was okay (don't remember the exact). Basking lamp is probably about 10-12" from upper left branch, temp reads around 85 there.

Pardon me if I just can’t see what’s in plain sight, but where are the bottom vents?

There are two behind the planter at the bottom on the rear, similar to those up top.

Are the fans blowing into or out of the enclosure?

1 is pulling air out and 1 is pushing air in. I am planning to put another two on the lower vents doing the same. I don't yet have a lot of logic behind this but wanted to get some airflow and thought the fan pulling up top may help pull the fog up.

You’ll want the fog to be at the top so it can roll down. When are you using the humidifier, and is it cool mist or warm mist?

Yes, I am realizing that now (made a mistake) but it will be very difficult to relocate the ports. I may just point them up and see if it helps.

The humidity levels are way too high during the day, they should be between 30-50%. The nighttime humidity levels depend on the nighttime temps and amount of airflow in the cage. What are your nighttime temps? Does your cage get enough airflow in it from the bottom to the top and then out (aka the chimney effect)?

This is precisely what I am focused on at present. I shoudl have clarified that the day time humidity is usually between 50-60%, it's the night time and early morning that I am having a hard time increasing to the levels I want it it. Will check night time temps this evening and get back. I suspect there is enough airflow, with the vents (setup for chimney effect) and fans, but it's hard to tell how much is "enough"?

Chameleons need their cages to be misted, strictly fogging is not enough. They need to be misted at around lights on and off, for a minimum of 2 minutes (you can mist longer, too) each time, as that is how long it takes for their drinking response to kick in. A dripper can go during the day to offer more hydration opportunities without raising humidity. You can also mist throughout the night in short spurts, as well. You don’t have to worry about a late afternoon misting, as your humidity levels aren’t lower than recommended

As mentioned in my initial post, I expected this feedback and acknoweldge this. Respectfully, I did a lot of reserach on this topic and came to the conclusion that it may not be necessary for adults, especially vields, and am trying to go without it. Happy to share that research if I can find it. My current plan is to incorporat the misting if I must to get the humidity levels high enough (when they should be). The irrigation system accomplishes the same as the dripper (same idea - just automated) through two random drip tubes.

I will check out and try to complete the husbandry form! Thanks so much for the help!!!

 

[Beman]

Hey there welcome to the forum... You are in great hands with @ERKleRose but I just wanted to touch on a few items.

It's a ReptiZoo Desert 10.0. I went with this size based on research/recommendations because of the height. I don't have a solarmeter but used the card that had come with the bulbs and it was okay (don't remember the exact). Basking lamp is probably about 10-12" from upper left branch, temp reads around 85 there.

You want to return this... Reptizoo have been tested by people in the hobby with a solarmeter 6.5 and they simply do not have the output that Arcadia or reptisun do. Much much lower UVI levels and not at all what chams need. Those cards literally will pick up 0.1 UVI level and tell you your good when you really need a 3.0 UVI. I would go with an arcadia ProT5 and a 6% UVB bulb. Your distance if you have aluminum window screen would be 8-9 inches from the fixture on the screen to the closest branches below the fixture. This would then put the cham in a 3 UVI level. If you are not using aluminum window screen let me know what you are and I can get more specific with distance needed for a 6% arcadia ProT5.

This is precisely what I am focused on at present. I shoudl have clarified that the day time humidity is usually between 50-60%, it's the night time and early morning that I am having a hard time increasing to the levels I want it it. Will check night time temps this evening and get back. I suspect there is enough airflow, with the vents (setup for chimney effect) and fans, but it's hard to tell how much is "enough"?

Humidity being 60% is still a bit high. 50% would be the absolute top end for a veiled. Also where are you measuring your levels at? Lower in the cage will be more humid due to the dirt and higher where the lighting is will be lower.

As mentioned in my initial post, I expected this feedback and acknoweldge this. Respectfully, I did a lot of reserach on this topic and came to the conclusion that it may not be necessary for adults, especially vields, and am trying to go without it. Happy to share that research if I can find it. My current plan is to incorporat the misting if I must to get the humidity levels high enough (when they should be). The irrigation system accomplishes the same as the dripper (same idea - just automated) through two random drip tubes.

So this being the only method of hydration is a slippery slope... And with your fogger inlets being at the bottom you are not circulating fog through the cage. Please keep in mind a few things about fogging.... You need cold temps and you have to have enough air circulation. If these are not in place as well your cham is high risk for a respiratory infection. Hot humid stagnant air causes this. When you are fogging and hitting all these parameters you do not have to hit 100%. 70-80% is great.
Another thing is you have to monitor their urates. You want urates that are at least 50% white. They should have consistency to them and should not be like water or runny egg whites if you see this you are over hydrating which has its own issues.

Not misting at all can cause some issues. Chameleons need moisture to clean their eyes. If you are not misting they never have the ability to clean them out with water.

 

[ERKleRose]

Here’s my feedback for what @Beman didn't already cover:

Yes, bio with cleanup crew. Will add more leaf litter, thanks for the tip! I did put a small rock dish that captures some water (just in case the need for an emergency drink), but if you think that's a problem I can take it out. He doesn't go down there often.

Awesome! Veileds are known to eat anything, including substrate, so it’s better to be safe than sorry.
I’d take the dish out, chams don’t recognize standing water, only moving water, and all it’s doing is growing bacteria

I will try to get more small branches. I am curious though what this accomplishes? The plan is for all the plants to grow (they are only a couple months old).

Only having too big of branches can cause foot issues.
I’d add at least a pothos at the top until everything grows in. It grows quick, is veiled safe, it’ll add a hiding spot and is a great spot for a dripper (you want the water to hit a plant at the top of the cage and have it drip down multiple leaves/plants on the way down)!

I will see what I can do to improve this, I didn't want to put fake plants and there are already a lot of plants there and I considered the design so that he would have some places to hide. As noted in the last comment, the plan is that the plants, and especially the tree, will grow more and provide additional cover. I tried to not overdo it as far as what's inside but can add more elements to create more hiding spaces. He doesn't seem to try to ever hide though but does go hang half way down here and there which seems like part of him regulating things.

Here’s a great link that goes over plant cover! https://chameleonacademy.com/forest-edge-chameleon-cage-method/

There are two behind the planter at the bottom on the rear, similar to those up top.

I see them now, thanks! They are small, could you switch the top vents and bottom vents? It’ll create better circulation and airflow!

1 is pulling air out and 1 is pushing air in. I am planning to put another two on the lower vents doing the same. I don't yet have a lot of logic behind this but wanted to get some airflow and thought the fan pulling up top may help pull the fog up

You want them on the top of the cage only and pulling air out only. It helps the chimney effect!

Yes, I am realizing that now (made a mistake) but it will be very difficult to relocate the ports. I may just point them up and see if it helps.

You can use PVC pipe or aquarium/vinyl tubing to add length to make it reach the top of the cage, plus those are more sanitary and easier to clean than the crinkly tubing humidifiers usually come with! It’s very important to know whether you have a cool air or warm air humidifier, so let us know!

As mentioned in my initial post, I expected this feedback and acknoweldge this. Respectfully, I did a lot of reserach on this topic and came to the conclusion that it may not be necessary for adults, especially vields, and am trying to go without it. Happy to share that research if I can find it. My current plan is to incorporat the misting if I must to get the humidity levels high enough (when they should be). The irrigation system accomplishes the same as the dripper (same idea - just automated) through two random drip tubes.

I will check out and try to complete the husbandry form! Thanks so much for the help!!!

I’d love to see the research you found! If you’re talking about wild veileds, they don’t live past the first dry season they encounter in their native range, just the eggs already buried survive. Right now you don’t have enough airflow to fog. What are your nighttime temps? Like @Beman already said, it doesn’t need to go up to 100% at night, 70-80% is just as fine, but only if temps are low enough and there’s enough circulation

Here’s the husbandry form, just copy and paste it then fill it in:

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
• Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

--------------

Please Note:

1. The more details you provide the better and more accurate help you will receive.
2. Photos can be very helpful.

 

[jslost]

Thanks so much for all this great help and feedback. I will send a more proper response when time allows later today but here are temp/humidity readings from yesterday.

5pm - Upper
72/59

5pm - Lower
70/54

8pm - Upper
69/61

8pm - Lower
69/60

I didn't check late night but we don't run a heater so I'm guessing everything dropped ±5 degrees and it will drop ±10+ in the winter months.

He typically puts himself to sleep on a vine just under the tree canopy, but last night decided to crawl up on the rocks in the upper left corner and hang/sleep. Not sure why he'd decide that as the best spot but must have seemed like a good idea . I notice he will do this 2/3 times a week, but most often he's on a vine down low.

 

[Beman]

Thanks so much for all this great help and feedback. I will send a more proper response when time allows later today but here are temp/humidity readings from yesterday.

5pm - Upper
72/59

5pm - Lower
70/54

8pm - Upper
69/61

8pm - Lower
69/60

I didn't check late night but we don't run a heater so I'm guessing everything dropped ±5 degrees and it will drop ±10+ in the winter months.

He typically puts himself to sleep on a vine just under the tree canopy, but last night decided to crawl up on the rocks in the upper left corner and hang/sleep. Not sure why he'd decide that as the best spot but must have seemed like a good idea . I notice he will do this 2/3 times a week, but most often he's on a vine down low.

So with these readings you want to make sure that the fogger is not running until well after 8pm when your temps reduce even farther. And I would keep those fans running as well at night you will need the air circulation if the cage is mostly glass. At least I do not see screen on the bottom or sides. I could be incorrect.

 

[ERKleRose]

Is your humidifier warm or cool mist? I’d honestly just mist for now, as keepers don’t run a humidifier with temps above 65*F, some do 67*F, but that’s the absolute max and can be pushing it, especially since you don’t have good air circulation. You can put a smart thermometer and/or a thermometer that measures highest and lowest temps per 24 hrs to get accurate temps later in the night to see how far the temp drops

 

[jslost]

Is your humidifier warm or cool mist? I’d honestly just mist for now, as keepers don’t run a humidifier with temps above 65*F, some do 67*F, but that’s the absolute max and can be pushing it, especially since you don’t have good air circulation. You can put a smart thermometer and/or a thermometer that measures highest and lowest temps per 24 hrs to get accurate temps later in the night to see how far the temp drops

It's a cool mist humidifier and it is currently set to run only in the pre-dawn hours. I am generally trying to follow these environmental recommendations from Cham Academy, less the mister at present.

 

[jslost]

So with these readings you want to make sure that the fogger is not running until well after 8pm when your temps reduce even farther. And I would keep those fans running as well at night you will need the air circulation if the cage is mostly glass. At least I do not see screen on the bottom or sides. I could be incorrect.

Confirmed, the sides and front are glass and the back is alum composite. The top has aluminim screen under the lights and there are 4x air vents on the back, each 14"x6".

 

[jslost]

Many thanks again @ERKleRose, here are responses to your primary points. If I missed anything let me know!

Awesome! Veileds are known to eat anything, including substrate, so it’s better to be safe than sorry.
I’d take the dish out, chams don’t recognize standing water, only moving water, and all it’s doing is growing bacteria

Will fill with leaf litter and plan to remove the water dish, he does seem to be very good at pooping into it. I have seen a lot of people that have used water glasses, which is where I got this idea originally. I'm tempted to try that, potentially higher up in the canopy.

Here’s a great link that goes over plant cover! https://chameleonacademy.com/forest-edge-chameleon-cage-method/

WIll work on the branching and planting and appreciate the 5-branches page. Will try to create more open hiding areas and have a pothos already that was originally planned but ran out of room. Will probably swap out some of the more decorative species. Will put the drip on it too, that's a great idea.

I see them now, thanks! They are small, could you switch the top vents and bottom vents? It’ll create better circulation and airflow!

Not sure what you meant about this, there are 4x total vents all the same size. 2 are semi-hidden behind the bottom planter.

You want them on the top of the cage only and pulling air out only. It helps the chimney effect!

Okay, that makes sense. I may purchase larger fans and get 2 more, that way I can have two pushing from the bottom and 2 pulling up top. That seems like it would create plenty of airflow and hopefully get some of the mist to rise and/or stay up higher in the canopy? This is what is currently running: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IJ2J2K0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It’s very important to know whether you have a cool air or warm air humidifier, so let us know!

Cool air. I just used a household version with PVC, here's a photo of what is going on behind.

I’d love to see the research you found! If you’re talking about wild veileds, they don’t live past the first dry season they encounter in their native range, just the eggs already buried survive. Right now you don’t have enough airflow to fog. What are your nighttime temps? Like @Beman already said, it doesn’t need to go up to 100% at night, 70-80% is just as fine, but only if temps are low enough and there’s enough circulation

Yes, I am referring in part to that outdoor reserach that was done but did also come accross several others and/or info that seemed to support it not being 100% necessary past the juvenile stage. I didn't make the decision lightly and am fine standing corrected if I need to add it, I was just hoping the fog could handle it.

Next, @Beman I appreciate your input as well.

You want to return this...

Will do, I purposly chose what I felt was a trustable brand (as compared to the others) and this is very dissapointing news. Will order the Arcadia 6% ProT5 righ taway. It's very frustrating they are allowed to sell garbage for pets.

Also where are you measuring your levels at?

There are hygrometers in the upper right and lower left of the enclosure.

You need cold temps and you have to have enough air circulation. If these are not in place as well your cham is high risk for a respiratory infection

This is my primary goal. The fog is running at the lowest temp typically which will vary inside here in CA between 60-70 on average. I feel like the fans should be creating plenty of airflow, and was concerned initially but overdoing it with too much (i.e. a constant breeze).

Not sure how to add a quote on an edit but the urates so far are good, and not too watery.

Not misting at all can cause some issues. Chameleons need moisture to clean their eyes. If you are not misting they never have the ability to clean them out with water.

Understood. I have been manually misting at least 1x a day, and have noticed Speedy really likes to roll his eyes around when I do this, so that checks out that perhaps he's cleaning them?

Not sure if I missed anything here but thanks again to you all so much. I very much appreciate the approach here on this forum is supportive and not just pure cristism. I am doing my best and always want to improve!

Will do the husbandry from on a separate post. Cheers.

 

[ERKleRose]

It's a cool mist humidifier and it is currently set to run only in the pre-dawn hours. I am generally trying to follow these environmental recommendations from Cham Academy, less the mister at present.

View attachment 360049

So that chart is tuned to where the fogger and mister play off of each other. The morning and nighttime are crucial, as they provide the dew and water droplets your cham needs to drink. If you found your research links, I’d love to see them! You can pick up a pressure pump chemical sprayer for cheap ($5-$15 depending on the size) from any home improvement store

Confirmed, the sides and front are glass and the back is alum composite. The top has aluminim screen under the lights and there are 4x air vents on the back, each 14"x6".

For the bottom vents, I only see small circular ones

 

[jslost]

Here's the husbandry form:

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
  Veiled Chameleon, Male, ±8 months
  
  
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
  He does not like to be handled. Have been hoping he’d warm up but he hasn’t yet.
  
  
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
  Primarily Dubias. Feeding is currently 2-3 small/medium 2x per day (morning and late afternoon). We have been gradually tapering the feeding back. Feeder colony is fed combination of kale and chard from garden, some chicken food, and misc fruit scraps.
  
  
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
  Dusted with calcium 3-4 days a week, Calcium +D3 2x month, and vitamin powder 2x month. All from Exo Terra brand.
  
  
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
  Watering is currently through an automated drip system that dips water onto plants and tree, among planters. Have seem cham drinking from leaves but not too often.
  
  
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
  No testing done. Feces seem normal, not runny, and black/brown. Urates not too runny and white.
  
  
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
  We don’t know a lot, picked him up at a reptile show in June. He managed his way out of the paper bag on the drive home was fun!

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
  Custom enclosure built off Ikea Milsbo glass door cabinet, 29”w x 69” t. Glass sides and door, aluminium composite rear, and metal/screen top. 4x vents are installed on back wall with fans for airflow.
  
  
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
  1x 24” Reptizoo T5 w/ Desert 10.0 UVB (will be replacing with Arcadia asap)
  1x LED 20/200W Par30 full spectrum plant bulb
  1x Reptizoo 75W basking bulb
  
  Lighting Schedule
  Plant light on 7am, off 7pm
  Basking light on 7:30am, off 2pm
  UVA/UVB light on 7:30am, off 7:30pm
  
  
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
  Cage floor ranges from 60-71, mid way 65-75, up top 70-80. Temps depending on whether basking bulb is on or not. Measured with heat gun.
  
  
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
  55-75, w/digital hygrometers
  
  
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
  Yes, all live plants.
  Weeping Fig tree, Prayer Plant,Lipstick plant, Nerve Plant, Maiden hair, spider, umbrella plants (will add pothos this weekend)
  
  
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
  In a bedroom, not hear high traffic or air vents/windows. Top of the cage basking branch is approx. 5’ from the floor.
  
  
• Location - Where are you geographically located?
  Northern California.

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.
Can’t get humidity levels high enough.

Here are some photos of the enclosure before adding anything else to the inside.

 

[jslost]

For the bottom vents, I only see small circular ones

Okay, I see what you mean now. Those are just small covers for the PVC inlets for the fogger. The vents are hidden below the rocks and behind the planter. I will post some pictures of the enclosure without anything in it along with the husbandry form so everyone can get a better idea of what is going on here.

You can pick up a pressure pump chemical sprayer for cheap ($5-$15 depending on the size) from any home improvement store

Yes! To clarify, we are manually misting currently with a spray bottle, there is just not an automated mister.

I will go through my browser history and see what I can turn up on the research!

 

[ERKleRose]

Here’s my feedback on the things that haven’t been addressed already

Will fill with leaf litter and plan to remove the water dish

Awesome!

I have seen a lot of people that have used water glasses, which is where I got this idea originally. I'm tempted to try that, potentially higher up in the canopy.

I’m guessing you’ve been on reddit’s chameleon page? Here’s a great link where Bill Strand covers that and why it isn’t viable by itself: https://chameleonacademy.com/s8-e3-should-we-give-chameleons-water-cups/
He doesn’t go over the fact that chams need mist to clean their eyes, but that’s another factor. Just like your current water bowl, a cup will grow bacteria. It’s also not natural for the chameleon, as Bill said (I’m paraphrasing here), why should we be trying to train them (and it doesn’t always work) when we’re trying to make our husbandry as naturalistic as possible? A dripper is a much better option for a daytime water source

WIll work on the branching and planting and appreciate the 5-branches page. Will try to create more open hiding areas and have a pothos already that was originally planned but ran out of room. Will probably swap out some of the more decorative species. Will put the drip on it too, that's a great idea.

That’s great! I’m glad it helped out!

Not sure what you meant about this, there are 4x total vents all the same size. 2 are semi-hidden behind the bottom planter.

You want the bottom vents above the substrate if the planter is pushed against them. With those bottom vents exposed, that’ll definitely help, or even potentially fix, the air circulation! You’ll only need a fan/fans at the top pulling air out then if you feel the need to

Okay, that makes sense. I may purchase larger fans and get 2 more, that way I can have two pushing from the bottom and 2 pulling up top. That seems like it would create plenty of airflow and hopefully get some of the mist to rise and/or stay up higher in the canopy? This is what is currently running:

Just make sure it doesn’t become drafty

Yes, I am referring in part to that outdoor reserach that was done but did also come accross several others and/or info that seemed to support it not being 100% necessary past the juvenile stage. I didn't make the decision lightly and am fine standing corrected if I need to add it, I was just hoping the fog could handle it.

For the veileds in their native habitats, they don’t survive the dry season. Mistings are essential and needed in helping chams clean their eyes, not just for hydrating

Understood. I have been manually misting at least 1x a day, and have noticed Speedy really likes to roll his eyes around when I do this, so that checks out that perhaps he's cleaning them?

That’s definitely him cleaning them, that’s terrific!

Not sure if I missed anything here but thanks again to you all so much. I very much appreciate the approach here on this forum is supportive and not just pure cristism. I am doing my best and always want to improve!

That’s why we’re here, to help each other grow as a community! What matters most is that you’re wanting the best life for your cham!

Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Primarily Dubias. Feeding is currently 2-3 small/medium 2x per day (morning and late afternoon). We have been gradually tapering the feeding back. Feeder colony is fed combination of kale and chard from garden, some chicken food, and misc fruit scraps.

At his age, he only needs to be fed once a day, in the morning (around an hour after lights on is best). @Beman correct me if
I’m wrong, but you can also start to cut his feedings to either every other day to 3 times a week
Kale is actually bad, as it’s high in oxalates, which binds calcium. The hobby has also moved away from chicken food to better options, as well. I’ve attached a gutload chart below!

Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
Dusted with calcium 3-4 days a week, Calcium +D3 2x month, and vitamin powder 2x month. All from Exo Terra brand.

Sadly Exo Terra supplements aren’t the best. Exo Terra’s multivitamin also has D3 in it, so you’re double dosing D3. The multivitamin doesn't have any preformed Vit. A either. You’ll toss both the calcium with D3 and the multivitamin and get either Repashy Calcium Plus LoD (has a jacksons cham on the label) or Zoo Med Reptivite with D3, as they’re the trusted multivitamin brands (Arcadia RevitlaseD3 is the other trusted brand, but should only be used if you have a Solarmeter 6.5 to make sure your uvb is on point, along with your gutload). You’ll use your new multivitamin (Repashy or Zoo Med) once every two weeks. All other feedings will be a phosphorus-free calcium without D3

Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
Cage floor ranges from 60-71, mid way 65-75, up top 70-80. Temps depending on whether basking bulb is on or not. Measured with heat gun.

What is the schedule you have for the basking bulb? Sadly temp guns are no good, they measure surface temp, not air temp. For your basking area, you’ll need to get a digital thermometer with a probe, and you’ll place the probe where the top of Speedy’s back is when he’s on his basking branch. If the hygrometers you have around his cage are also thermometers, that’s perfect for getting the other temps!

Yes! To clarify, we are manually misting currently with a spray bottle, there is just not an automated mister.

That’s great! Make sure the mistings are at least 2 minutes long

 

[jslost]

Thanks so much, going to respond now while I still can today. A few more things but we're getting there!

why it isn’t viable by itself:

Agree on this, I just figured it couldn't hurt to have the option, but the bacteria I suppose would hurt, so...

ou want the bottom vents above the substrate if the planter is pushed against them.

This would be extremely challenging to change at this stage and I will comprimize the integrity of the rear panels if I were to cut holes again.

Although hard to tell, there is space between the planter and the vents of approx. 2" at the top and even more, potentially 4-5" towards the bottom near the vents (the planter is angled), I can get a better pic if needed. I had hoped since it's air that the air would find it's way up and still get the chimney effect. Given this may make or break the airflow being okay (which I had thought it would be already, especially with the fans), is there any way to viably figure out if it's enough airflow? I had reviewed this before building this which is where I got the idea for the fans 1 in and 1 out to begin with: https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/air-movement-in-captivity.177814/

For the veileds in their native habitats, they don’t survive the dry season. Mistings are essential and needed in helping chams clean their eyes, not just for hydrating

10-4

At his age, he only needs to be fed once a day, in the morning (around an hour after lights on is best). @Beman correct me if
I’m wrong, but you can also start to cut his feedings to either every other day to 3 times a week
Kale is actually bad, as it’s high in oxalates, which binds calcium. The hobby has also moved away from chicken food to better options, as well. I’ve attached a gutload chart below!

This is very helpful and is what we had tried to do, except he always seems hungry in the afternooon too. We will cut out the afternoon feedings. Thanks for the tips on the chicken food or kale, I had not expected the roaches to be so picky! Thx for the chart, we can plant what we need to always have it fresh.

What is the schedule you have for the basking bulb? Sadly temp guns are no good, they measure surface temp, not air temp. For your basking area, you’ll need to get a digital thermometer with a probe, and you’ll place the probe where the top of Speedy’s back is when he’s on his basking branch. If the hygrometers you have around his cage are also thermometers, that’s perfect for getting the other temps!

I posted the lighting schedule in the husbandry above but it runs from 7:30am to 2pm daily. We normally feed him around 8am each morning once he's had a chance to warm up a bit. Both of the hygrometers are also thermometers (see pics) and I have been using the gun mainly to make sure the basking branch wasn't too warm.

That’s great! Make sure the mistings are at least 2 minutes long

Given this entire scenario, how often should do this ideally, and at what time of the day?

Will plan to switch up the supplements too!

Thanks again!

 

[jslost]

I would go with an arcadia ProT5 and a 6% UVB bulb

Just to confirm, this is the bulb you are recommending? I assume it will fit in the existing fixture:

https://a.co/d/1NQBBxb

 

[ERKleRose]

This would be extremely challenging to change at this stage and I will comprimize the integrity of the rear panels if I were to cut holes again.

Although hard to tell, there is space between the planter and the vents of approx. 2" at the top and even more, potentially 4-5" towards the bottom near the vents (the planter is angled), I can get a better pic if needed. I had hoped since it's air that the air would find its way up and still get the chimney effect. Given this may make or break the airflow being okay (which I had thought it would be already, especially with the fans), is there any way to viably figure out if it's enough airflow? I had reviewed this before building this which is where I got the idea for the fans 1 in and 1 out to begin with: https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/air-movement-in-captivity.177814/

Are you able to pull the planter forward to expose more of the vents? Putting the fogger output on the top of the cage will free up the two circular fogger inputs to turn them into more bottom vents, too! Maybe put some fog at the bottom (just to test, and at night) and see if it gets sucked up and then out of the cage to help visualize your airflow?

This is very helpful and is what we had tried to do, except he always seems hungry in the afternooon too. We will cut out the afternoon feedings. Thanks for the tips on the chicken food or kale, I had not expected the roaches to be so picky! Thx for the chart, we can plant what we need to always have it fresh.

Veileds will eat way too much for their own good haha, they’re little beggars and always want more. I know it’s hard to look at their little faces when you start cutting food back, but it’s for their health. If they get obese, it’s life-threatening. That’s awesome, I wish I had garden space like that!

I posted the lighting schedule in the husbandry above but it runs from 7:30am to 2pm daily. We normally feed him around 8am each morning once he's had a chance to warm up a bit. Both of the hygrometers are also thermometers (see pics) and I have been using the gun mainly to make sure the basking branch wasn't too warm.

Sorry, brain fart on me! The temp gun isn’t suitable for measuring basking temps and even if it was, it reads lower than where the cham’s back is. A probe is needed

Given this entire scenario, how often should do this ideally, and at what time of the day?

Following Bill Strand’s guide is a great starting point, and you can tweak it as you learn what your specific needs are. The minimum is around lights on and lights off, for at least two minutes. You can mist longer if you need higher humidity spikes and/or if you want to offer more water for drinking and/or eye cleaning. You can also do short mistings during the night to help keep the humidity up (if conditions are good enough). An example for your schedule is 2+ minutes at 7am, 2+ minutes at 7 or 7:30 pm, 15-30 second spurts throughout the night if needed to help keep humidity up, and ~30 seconds to a minute right before fogging starts (if conditions are correct)

Will plan to switch up the supplements too!

Great!

Just to confirm, this is the bulb you are recommending? I assume it will fit in the existing fixture:

https://a.co/d/1NQBBxb

That’s a T8 bulb, is your current fixture T8 or T5 High Output?

 

[jslost]

Are you able to pull the planter forward to expose more of the vents? Putting the fogger output on the top of the cage will free up the two circular fogger inputs to turn them into more bottom vents, too! Maybe put some fog at the bottom (just to test, and at night) and see if it gets sucked up and then out of the cage to help visualize your airflow?

Veileds will eat way too much for their own good haha, they’re little beggars and always want more. I know it’s hard to look at their little faces when you start cutting food back, but it’s for their health. If they get obese, it’s life-threatening. That’s awesome, I wish I had garden space like that!

Sorry, brain fart on me! The temp gun isn’t suitable for measuring basking temps and even if it was, it reads lower than where the cham’s back is. A probe is needed

Following Bill Strand’s guide is a great starting point, and you can tweak it as you learn what your specific needs are. The minimum is around lights on and lights off, for at least two minutes. You can mist longer if you need higher humidity spikes and/or if you want to offer more water for drinking and/or eye cleaning. You can also do short mistings during the night to help keep the humidity up (if conditions are good enough). An example for your schedule is 2+ minutes at 7am, 2+ minutes at 7 or 7:30 pm, 15-30 second spurts throughout the night if needed to help keep humidity up, and ~30 seconds to a minute right before fogging starts (if conditions are correct)

Great!

That’s a T8 bulb, is your current fixture T8 or T5 High Output?

Odd, the product pictures all say T5 but I see now the actual item detail says T8. My existing fixture is T5.

 

[ERKleRose]

Assuming your fixture takes 22” bulbs, here’s a few links:
https://joshsfrogs.com/sp/arcadia-d3-6-uvb-t5-bulb-22-basics00649
https://www.lllreptile.com/products...MI-JiV9_-0iQMV_i7UAR10uhmvEAQYASABEgJxNfD_BwE
https://www.reptilebasics.com/arcadia-forest-6-uvb/arcadia-d3-6-uvb-t5-bulb-22/
https://www.pangeareptile.com/colle...-vapor/products/arcadia-6-uvb-t5-reptile-bulb