How many liars do you think are out there?

[antithesis123]

This upsets me. How many people do you think lie about their chameleon locale when breeding or selling them? How common is it? I know there are some pet stores that could care less about what "locale" a chameleon is from.
I talked to one (who has a website and sells on fauna) who had an Andapa for sale. When I talked to them they said they seemed confused to wether it was an Andapa or ambanja yet it was sold as an Andapa (if it sold)- regardless! And last week this guy messages me and tells me he also has an Andapa like mine..and after a few messages he also tells me that he has a female Andapa too.. But then I look through his posts and his posts talk about getting a PAnther called a "Diego red" (never heard of it) and an Ambanja female which I guess are now Andapas in his head. So he's going to try to breed these chameleons and probably tell people that they are Andapas too.

The thing here is that I'm just talking about one tiny locale.. not the larger, more common ones. I am so not against crossing locales either, I'm only against dishonesty. I wish there was a way to register your chameleon and a chameleon breeding society to verify lineage (voluntarily) if people wanted to.

 

[ijmccollum]

Well, they do pedigree other animals.........

I volunteer C. Anderson to head up this project. Actually Chameleon Forums could start a thread for registering your chams. What do ya think Brad?

 

[millerman6401]

sad part is this happens all the time. thats is why when looking to buy a chamaleon i did lots of research on drffrent places and got my ambilobe from a site sponsor. its hard to trust people these days and unfortunatley the real problem lies with the females which are almost unidentifiable most of the time :/

 

[allencg101]

alot i ordered a blue bar ambanja from my ex friends pet store and payed 350 for him when he grew up or still is he turned into a beautiful ambilobe male. But i am happy with blaze due to his temperment and coloring he is awesome and very friendly. they guy moved back to cali but if i ever see him again i'm gonna give him more then a peice of my mind and then some. but most of them are out there from pet stores they will tell you what you want for the sale.

 

[emilybier]

This is a problem in the snake world as well, especially green tree pythons. On another but related note, ball pythons hets are sold dishonestly as well. In my experience and opinion your best bet is buying from someone who has a good reputation and don't buy from people who are obviously muddling the truth. I picked up a het albino ball python recently from a friend and he is drawing up papers, when I get them I'll let you know what format they are in and you might be able to request them if you try to buy from someone who isn't a big time breeder.

 

[Chameleons Canada]

That happens quite often, a lot of people will tell you what you want to hear just to make a sell. That's why I recommend you buy from reputable breeders or from an importer you know you can trust.

I have got calls from people trying to confirm if the chams at their local pet store are mine, because they are telling clients their chameleons came from me, even if I have never sold them any.

 

[clarkrw3]

It happens a lot in panthers particularly because you can't tell with the females. To me unless you have a male from the same clutch as your female or unless you have confirmed pictures of colored up males from the same clutch as your females you should not breed them. A lot of the mixed up lines right now I feel come from a female that were purchased off of a specific sire yet the mother of that clutch was unproven (or WC) and only females were purchased so there is no way of knowing if they are 100%. Then you breed this new female/or females and wonder in 9 months why your babies (most of which are already in new homes) look funny. It's those unproven or WC females!! You now have crosses that you never intended and you have sold off most of them and people are now breeding the females thinking they are from great lines but you have introduced the wrong blood by the WC (that didn't come in under the right locale) or the unproven female from another breeder.

Knowing what the males from a females clutch looks like is VERY important and I think we should start including that in the deal when selling/purchasing females.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Yes it would be very nice to get a bloodline paper work. But I also think that you should be able to trust people but these days it hard I know. With our lines we are working with we are working on sending a bloodline/local paper and email to everyone how buys from us. And I have not looked in to it yet but there is something like this called iherp.

 

[sdheli420]

just nother reason why i started my ambilobe set up..i wanted to mke sure they where blue bar ambie's, and also keeping track with pictures for later...


my favorite is when someone tell's you they want full price for a x mixed with x chams (those are just mutts to me, they give you random-ness)

 

[Chris Anderson]

Well, they do pedigree other animals.........

I volunteer C. Anderson to head up this project. Actually Chameleon Forums could start a thread for registering your chams. What do ya think Brad?

Already tried it. Jason Descamps and I set up and ran what we called the Captive Chameleon Bloodline Tracking Database (CCBTD) which allowed users to pedigree their chameleons. They were able to upload their breeders and offspring, transfer individuals to new owners, etc. It was designed so that if I was considering purchasing an animal or looking for a bloodline to add to a breeding project, I could look back at photos and records of its Sire and Dam, the Sire and Dam of each of those, and so on, as far back as had been recorded, so that one could decide for themselves whether they liked the bloodline (or agreed with the locale designation and its purity).

Unfortunately it was poorly utilized. Despite a lot of major breeders liking the idea and claiming they would use it, none ever did. A number of individuals were very hostile to the idea and viewed as "the chameleon police". Eventually we took it down as it was not being used in any reasonable capacity.

Chris

 

[sdheli420]

im sure if all chams where the cost of parsons..then it would be widley used...fun idea tho!!

 

[Pilotman800]

Those certain individuals probably were hostile and called it the chameleon police because they were trying to sell crosses that were being passed as pure.

 

[ijmccollum]

Unfortunately it was poorly utilized. Despite a lot of major breeders liking the idea and claiming they would use it, none ever did. A number of individuals were very hostile to the idea and viewed as "the chameleon police". Eventually we took it down as it was not being used in any reasonable capacity.

Chris

That's unfortunate. People pay a lot for specific locals, it would be good to track them.

 

[sdheli420]

Those certain individuals probably were hostile and called it the chameleon police because they were trying to sell crosses that were being passed as pure.

same thing i was thinkin'

 

[JackP308]

To many people to trust and so much room for error. I believe a lot is getting burned on initial WC female imports, keepers without any clue, and honest mistakes that this problem will never be resolved to a liking. Animals do speak for themselves I also believe. So if you buy a Ambilobe and it looks ambanja more than your going to be in denial and confused.

I turned down a pair of Andapas few months ago on here and on Fauna, they did not look to what I would expected. There were nice juvenile/young adult Andapas few months ago though. They looked awesome.

 

[clarkrw3]

Those certain individuals probably were hostile and called it the chameleon police because they were trying to sell crosses that were being passed as pure.

I agree with this. It always comes back to the females and seeing clutchmates of the females. If I was selling animals that came from a WC female I would wait to sell till they started coloring up. Otherwise if using CB females you need to be willing to show/give pictures of males from the same clutch as the female mother with her offspring. As hobbiests we need to start demanding more from breeders if we have any intention of breeding ourselves. These larger breeders are not beyond reproach! They should not just expect us to "trust" when they are charging top dollar, we need to demand more. All of them have the documentation to share, and if they are not willing to then....

 

[Olimpia]

There are probably as many liars as there are ignoramuses. I saw an ad selling "Ambanja panthers, of the nosy be locale." What?

 

[antithesis123]

I am specifically talking about intentionally decietful people whose only concern is making a buck. however another frustrating thing about panthers is that one pairing can fertilize three clutches so if someone buys a panther from an individual who cross bred her, you can't be certain that when you pair it up in a pure blood line that it will yield pure offspring Especially with the females.

It would be cool if this forum had a registry for your chameleons with links to their sires or owners-- it would be a whole other website though!

 

[antithesis123]

There are probably as many liars as there are ignoramuses. I saw an ad selling "Ambanja panthers, of the nosy be locale." What?

Hillarious! and equally sad

 

[Texas Panther Man]

I saw that andapa ad you were referring to. Even contacted the party but after closely looking at him I chose to pass. The party that had him for sale was really anxious to get rid of him. Im sure they were aware he wasnt labeled properly but didnt want to take a loss on a cham they had prob over paid for in the first place. Unfortunately thats fairly common. Thats why you dont every buy anything without doing as much research on the locale as possible. That was an easy one to spot. It gets alot harder when youve got someone passing a sambava off as an andapa. Or any other locales that resemble each other. Thats when ppl get taken advantage of unfortunately.

Whats worse is when youve got full documentation on your lines and someone is so jealous they lie and say your selling crosses. That happens also.