How much time does it takes for follicle absoprtion?

[Eddex]

So I recently noticed my little girl started to shown more collorfull paterns like a month ago and she stopped eating.

For context: She is almost 10 months old and i've been feeding her with 10 runner roaches dialy, I was planning to stop feeding her with that ammount of food after her first year and proceed to just let her eat like 3-4 roaches every 2 days, she has been with me for almost 4 months now., this is how she used to look like:

Anyways, as I said she started to show those colorfull paterns like 25 days ago and she stopped eating, she gradually started eating less the first days (3-5 roaches) but after like 5-7 days she refused to eat, this is how she looks like right now:

I went to the vet and he told me that my little girl was ready to mate with a male and she had follicles, there was 2 options, if I wanted to breed little chams I had to find a male or just let her do her thing and lay unfertile eggs.
He also told me to feed her with 3-5 roaches every 2 days kinda like gently forcing her opening her mouth with a credit card with a lot of care and without harming her and just put the roaches inside her mouth, give her calcium every day and that's what i've been doing for the last 20 days.

I'm attaching the x-ray we took of her insides:

I am a little bit worried because it's been almost a month and she hasn't layed any unfertile eggs (I decided not to breed her because she is to small yet, as I said my girl is like 9 months old).
I see her very active and quite curious as always, everytime I spray water on the chams enclouse she comes closer and tries to reach my hand. I see her doing normal activity, moving without any issues, she looks perfectly fine but still doesn't wanna eat by herself.

What should I do? I put inside her enclosure a container with peatmoss that I've been keeping wet so she can dig and lay the eggs but hasn't done that yet. I try not to handle her but she keeps coming close and tries to reach my hand and climb all the way up to my head, I also try to take her out to the sun as much as I can but lately the weather has been awful.

So guys what is your suggestions? How much time do I have to wait for her to absorb those follicles and start eating normally?
I don't mind feeding her with the credit card stuff, I've been doing that for like 10 days now but I'd like to see her doing the feeding by herself again.

I'd also like to mention that I am using an arcadia uvb light for her which turns on auto at 9 am and shuts off at 9 pm.
I also have a basking spot light to warm her up, the stick she uses for that is like 32 celcius and that basking spot like turns on auto at 9 am as well, shutting off at 1 pm, turning on again at 5pm and turning off at 9 pm calling it a day.
I spray water 3 times a day, at 9:30 am, second time between 13:00-15:00 and one last time at 20:30-21:00.

 

[MissSkittles]

Hi and welcome. I’d like to see what her enclosure looks like please. What supplements are you using and how often are they given? We keep our girls cooler at no higher than about 26/27c, which helps to reduce egg production, along with limited food. Here’s my blog that goes over it. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/veiled-chameleon-laying-101.2488/
What was she doing previously? Was she more active? Lethargic? How long after she developed her big girl colors did she stop eating? Many of our ladies will have decreased interest in eating while they are in their receptive phase. Finding a mate and reproducing is more important than food. As the eggs develop, they also have less room for food in their bellies and will have decreased eating then too. I have to say I don’t agree with force feeding her daily. I would let her go several days and offer her food to eat on her own. Maybe try a different type feeder than roaches. They like variety as much as we do. Try to interact less with her. Change her lay bin to that which I describe in my blog and put it in her enclosure. Don’t forget to give her a couple of stable ways in and out of it. Peat isn’t a good substrate. It is too loose and won’t hold form. Play sand is best. Provide her with some privacy. When I think my girl is near to laying, I cover the bottom third of her enclosure with a light sheet so she feels more secure. They are very vulnerable when they have to come down from their trees to lay eggs and if they don’t feel it’s safe, they won’t and can become eggbound. How current is that pic of her? I’m not really seeing gravid coloration. With the high basking temps and a bit too much food, I doubt she’ll be absorbing her eggs/follicles and would expect her to lay a big clutch. Also, I’m not really sure if it’s been proven that they can or do absorb anything. Let me tag in someone who is far more experienced and who I’ve learned from. @kinyonga your expertise is needed please.

 

[Eddex]

Hi and welcome. I’d like to see what her enclosure looks like please. What supplements are you using and how often are they given? We keep our girls cooler at no higher than about 26/27c, which helps to reduce egg production, along with limited food. Here’s my blog that goes over it. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/veiled-chameleon-laying-101.2488/
What was she doing previously? Was she more active? Lethargic? How long after she developed her big girl colors did she stop eating? Many of our ladies will have decreased interest in eating while they are in their receptive phase. Finding a mate and reproducing is more important than food. As the eggs develop, they also have less room for food in their bellies and will have decreased eating then too. I have to say I don’t agree with force feeding her daily. I would let her go several days and offer her food to eat on her own. Maybe try a different type feeder than roaches. They like variety as much as we do. Try to interact less with her. Change her lay bin to that which I describe in my blog and put it in her enclosure. Don’t forget to give her a couple of stable ways in and out of it. Peat isn’t a good substrate. It is too loose and won’t hold form. Play sand is best. Provide her with some privacy. When I think my girl is near to laying, I cover the bottom third of her enclosure with a light sheet so she feels more secure. They are very vulnerable when they have to come down from their trees to lay eggs and if they don’t feel it’s safe, they won’t and can become eggbound. How current is that pic of her? I’m not really seeing gravid coloration. With the high basking temps and a bit too much food, I doubt she’ll be absorbing her eggs/follicles and would expect her to lay a big clutch. Also, I’m not really sure if it’s been proven that they can or do absorb anything. Let me tag in someone who is far more experienced and who I’ve learned from. @kinyonga your expertise is needed please.

Hi, this are the supplements I've been using since I got her:

I've been using the recal pet calcium every day and the repashy every 2 weeks.
She showed the colors like on september 15, she reduced by herself the ammount of roaches for at least 4-5 days eating only 2-3 dialy instead of the 10 roaches she usually ate. After the 6th day she refused eating at all.

Previous to this situation she acted normally she is still acting normally, normal activity, strong arms and tail, moving around and being very curious.
I am not forcing her to eat dialy, I am just doing this every 2 days, feeding her with 3-5 small roaches.
For the substrate I forgot to mention I used a mix because Idk how the other 2 substrates are called in english (sorry, spanish native here lol) but is a mix a friend recommended me exactly for chams to lay eggs, It's a mix between vermiculite, peatmoss and coconut fiber with a small ammount of sand,
Yes, the picture I posted of her is how she looks right now, I took it like 2-3 days prior posting this.
Her enclosure looks like this:

I'm not noticing anything unusual on her behaviour tbh. But I am worried Im not seeing any proggress on her trying to eat by herself.

 

[MissSkittles]

Ok. Your supplements are ok. It would be better to use the Repashy calcium Plus LoD - the one with the Jackson’s chameleon on the label. But my concern was that she was getting a source of D3 and calcium on a good schedule, and she is. I do see that there are some improvements that she would appreciate to her enclosure. The most important is to put her lay bin inside her enclosure permanently. This makes a big difference for her and when she feels the urge to start laying, she can. You can put a giant plant pot in or an opaque plastic bin or however…it just needs to be available to her all the time. You don’t have to use play sand, but the coco coir and peat are too fluffy and not good choices. When she’s digging her hole to lay her eggs, she doesn’t want the material to keep falling back in or on her. It needs to be pretty dense so it will stay in place. Like something that you could build a sand castle with and hold its form. It would also be good to add more plants for her. A nice thick pothos or two would be great. Give her some places to hide if she wants. If you put the pothos on the floor of her enclosure and train it to grow up, the leaves will grow bigger, which is cool. Adding more branches or vines for her to travel on is also a very good idea. You want to simulate a tree basically. I like natural branches, but bendy vines are great additions. Just avoid the black Exo Terra vine - it sheds tiny particles that can get in sensitive eyes. If when you go to look at her, you have to take a minute or two to find her, you’ve got it perfect. These changes will help her to feel more secure in her enclosure and having the lay bin available whenever she needs it makes a huge difference. I would say to place it towards the back of the enclosure and partly hidden behind plants. Somewhere I have pics to show how I set up one of my girls enclosures, but it would take me forever to find it. Here’s an enclosure that I set up for one of my males, that shows what to aim for. Pretend there’s a lay bin in the back.

 

[Eddex]

Ok. Your supplements are ok. It would be better to use the Repashy calcium Plus LoD - the one with the Jackson’s chameleon on the label. But my concern was that she was getting a source of D3 and calcium on a good schedule, and she is. I do see that there are some improvements that she would appreciate to her enclosure. The most important is to put her lay bin inside her enclosure permanently. This makes a big difference for her and when she feels the urge to start laying, she can. You can put a giant plant pot in or an opaque plastic bin or however…it just needs to be available to her all the time. You don’t have to use play sand, but the coco coir and peat are too fluffy and not good choices. When she’s digging her hole to lay her eggs, she doesn’t want the material to keep falling back in or on her. It needs to be pretty dense so it will stay in place. Like something that you could build a sand castle with and hold its form. It would also be good to add more plants for her. A nice thick pothos or two would be great. Give her some places to hide if she wants. If you put the pothos on the floor of her enclosure and train it to grow up, the leaves will grow bigger, which is cool. Adding more branches or vines for her to travel on is also a very good idea. You want to simulate a tree basically. I like natural branches, but bendy vines are great additions. Just avoid the black Exo Terra vine - it sheds tiny particles that can get in sensitive eyes. If when you go to look at her, you have to take a minute or two to find her, you’ve got it perfect. These changes will help her to feel more secure in her enclosure and having the lay bin available whenever she needs it makes a huge difference. I would say to place it towards the back of the enclosure and partly hidden behind plants. Somewhere I have pics to show how I set up one of my girls enclosures, but it would take me forever to find it. Here’s an enclosure that I set up for one of my males, that shows what to aim for. Pretend there’s a lay bin in the back.
View attachment 359578

I really appreciate the advices, I know you wanna help me but right now my concern is about her not eating by her own.
I can change the calcium and I can add more plants to her enclosure, I am keeping the container with the substract all the time but that will not change the fact that she has follicles and she is not eating by herself.
I know you are right about this stuff but can we please focus on the follicles and what should I do about it please?

 

[jannb]

How long has it been since the X-ray? She might be egg bound. If the follicles do not harden to eggs, she will not be able to lay them. Sometimes they do absorb the eggs but often they do not.

 

[Eddex]

How long has it been since the X-ray? She might be egg bound. If the follicles do not harden to eggs, she will not be able to lay them. Sometimes they do absorb the eggs but often they do not.

The X-ray was taken on Septemebr 27.

 

[jannb]

The X-ray was taken on Septemebr 27.

I’d be afraid that she’s egg bound and will need surgery.

 

[Eddex]

I’d be afraid that she’s egg bound and will need surgery.

But the cham has no eggs, it's all follicles

 

[jannb]

But the cham has no eggs, it's all follicles

They can not lay follicles.

 

[jannb]

They can not lay follicles. This is the surgery performed by my vet when we lived in Charleston, SC.

https://birdsandexotics.com/blog/case-study-3-napoleon-the-chameleon/

 

[MissSkittles]

Pre-ovulatory egg binding​

Pre-ovulatory egg binding is also known as follicular stasis. This condition occurs when mature follicles fail to ovulate. The causes behind this reproductive disease can be varied, from incorrect husbandry to underlying disease (Hedley, 2016). Follicular stasis is most commonly seen in lizards. Clinical signs include anorexia, lethargy, weight loss, coelomic distention and collapse. Rupture of the follicle can occasionally cause secondary yolk coelomitis.

Diagnosis is usually confirmed via ultrasonography or radiography, where follicles can be visible as round soft tissue structures located in the middle of the coelom (Gumpenberger, 2017). Hyperalbuminaemia, hypercalcaemia and hyperphosphataemia, together with an explicative physical exam, are findings that may also lead to a correct diagnosis (Hedley, 2016). Supportive care is always necessary for these patients. Medical management can be attempted, but ovariectomy or ovariosalpingectomy is usually the preferred treatment (Mader, 2006). In extremely debilitated patients, euthanasia should be considered.

https://www.veterinary-practice.com/article/reproductive-diseases-in-reptiles

 

[jannb]

Pre-ovulatory egg binding​

Pre-ovulatory egg binding is also known as follicular stasis. This condition occurs when mature follicles fail to ovulate. The causes behind this reproductive disease can be varied, from incorrect husbandry to underlying disease (Hedley, 2016). Follicular stasis is most commonly seen in lizards. Clinical signs include anorexia, lethargy, weight loss, coelomic distention and collapse. Rupture of the follicle can occasionally cause secondary yolk coelomitis.

Diagnosis is usually confirmed via ultrasonography or radiography, where follicles can be visible as round soft tissue structures located in the middle of the coelom (Gumpenberger, 2017). Hyperalbuminaemia, hypercalcaemia and hyperphosphataemia, together with an explicative physical exam, are findings that may also lead to a correct diagnosis (Hedley, 2016). Supportive care is always necessary for these patients. Medical management can be attempted, but ovariectomy or ovariosalpingectomy is usually the preferred treatment (Mader, 2006). In extremely debilitated patients, euthanasia should be considered.

https://www.veterinary-practice.com/article/reproductive-diseases-in-reptiles

You quoted my Dr. Doug Mader

 

[kinyonga]

First of all, I am not a vet but I’ve kept chameleons and lots of other reptiles for years, hatched chameleon eggs, raised some from babies, etc. I’ve been involved in a couple of studies to do with these follicle/egg issues (in a very small way) too.

In all those years I’ve only known of one veiled chameleon that had reabsorbed her eggs/follicles. In cases where the follicles do not progress and become proper eggs, the female suffers from follicular stasis and eventually dies. In some cases, the follicles progress to eggs but the female becomes eggbound and can’t lay the eggs and dies.

Husbandry plays a big part in follicular stasis and dystocia IMHO. Temperature need to be kept close to 80C for basking.
It’s very important that, as the females approach sexual maturity, you don’t overfeed them, to help her to NOT to produce large numbers of follicles that go into stasis…and NOT produce large clutches that put huge demands on nutrients that eggs need to be taken from her body. Supplements and uvb lighting are particularly important too. She also needs a lay in with a substrate that she is happy with.

I know this doesn’t exactly answer your question. Sorry.

If she shows any signs of decline, (lethargy, sleeping during the day, sitting low in the cage, etc), you will need to take her to a vet right away to be spayed before she becomes too weak to do it.

Hope this helps.