How/Where to measure basking temps, Help.

[cyberlocc]

Okay so I have been reading a lot of this thread topic and from 6 different posts I get 6 different answers. And 4 of those are from long time established members here.

I want/need to know if I should buy a thermostat or not? I have a cheapie on off, that I just setup with a high temp limit for JIC. I was thinking about buying a Spyder robotics but half the time here I see you dont need it? The other half you cant go without it? I would rather not buy it as its expensive but if I need it then I need it lol.


Now, at this moment the Chams cage is in my room. I have another room that is undergoing renovations (my man cave) once that is done he will go in there. The Mancave, was not a part of the OG house, so it has its own heating and cooling. However the heating and cooling in the house is a Swamp cooler, and a Propane furnace. The furnace has an old thermostat (works okayish) the swamp does not. So we leave the thermostat on the furnace to 70-75, all the time. However depending on the day (and the time) the temp can fluctuate 5-10 degrees in either direction.

Now the question, do I need a stat? I am getting mixed logic and want to know your input?

1. 1 Group of people are saying, the basking temp should be based on the temperature of the perch (IE how hot is the branch) and this doesn't change correct?

2. The other group is saying the Air temperature is what matters not the temp of the branch (or the cham on the branch)

I can understand both thoughts slightly, but then throw in the tall enclosure with gradients and people that seem knowledgeable saying different things I am lost!

So which is it? Does the air temperature matter, or does the branch temperature matter? Do they both matter to an extent and by how much? Or really just do I need a thermostat???

 

[kiwilulu]

No need for a thermostat. You only need a thermometer.
You can adjust your temperature by either the wattage of your basking bulb and the distance to the branch. That tenperature should be fairly constant throughout the day.
If your question is how to measure it, most people have a cheap infrared thermometer that allows you to measure temps at different places of the cage easily. Then, get a regular thermometer and keep it at the same place, to use as reference.

 

[cyberlocc]

No need for a thermostat. You only need a thermometer.
You can adjust your temperature by either the wattage of your basking bulb and the distance to the branch. That tenperature should be fairly constant throughout the day.
If your question is how to measure it, most people have a cheap infrared thermometer that allows you to measure temps at different places of the cage easily. Then, get a regular thermometer and keep it at the same place, to use as reference.

Well there in lies in my issue. First off, a infrared measure the temperature of a surface (a branch, the cham, ect) a temp probe measures the temperature of the Air. If you take a reading of a branch with a temp probe attached and then hit it with a heat gun they will be different.

So moving on here, If I measure the temperature of the Air (what I am currently doing) it will not be the same all the time. As it measures the air in that area not the heat from the bulb. The temperature of the branch will not fluctuate much if I used a heat gun, as the ambient air will cause little difference.

So when people say to keep the basking temp for my panther at 80f, if done with an air probe that isnt possible(without a Stat). The air in the room is constantly changing thus those temps are constantly changing? However if I am measuring the temperature of the branch (actual heat given by the bulb) that should stay pretty much the same.

So I guess I am answering my own question lol. I should buy a temp gun and keep the branch at 80f? However the air will still reach higher and lower than 85 and the only way to stop that is a thermostat. However with a thermostat I can keep the ambient in the area controlled, by dimming the light. However if the bulb dims the branches temp from the light goes down as well. So now to maintain ambient air, I go to a lets say 78 ambient in the house now the bulb is so dim that its barely on, and the branch drops in temp right?

What I am saying is this is basic thermodynamics you Cannot have it both ways. Either the branch is 80 and the air is in a range or the Air is 80 and the branch (and cham sitting on it) is a range. Think of an oven for an example of what I mean. The ovens temperature is 450 degrees, the food you are cooking is never ever 450 degrees.

So which one needs to be 80?

 

[TheVeiledProphet]

One of the mysteries of life is balancing the "mixed logic" to which you refer. First I will meNtion the famed Dr. Oaccam, and the well known Concept of Occam's razor. Where one is to consider that the most simplest answer is most likely the correct. And true answer. So I always follow what's known as "common knowledge". It is common knowledge that one should not bask towards others. It is unseemly and rude. Basking is a lowly form of braggadocio, and should not be tolerated. No you can't have it both ways. So just don't ever try.

 

[TheVeiledProphet]

And there in lies the rub

 

[Virgil1972]

Your over thinking it. Put a basic thermometer on the basking spot and see what the temp it. It is also okay if the basking spot is not the same temp though out the day. No matter what you do and how much money you put into it the spot will never keep a perfect 80. The best way to adjust the temps is to rise or lower the bulb or change wattage.

 

[gotwqqd]

First off, a infrared measure the temperature of a surface (a branch, the cham, ect) a temp probe measures the temperature of the Air. If you take a reading of a branch with a temp probe attached and then hit it with a heat gun they will be different.

So moving on here, If I measure the temperature of the Air (what I am currently doing) it will not be the same all the time. As it measures the air in that area not the heat from the bulb. The temperature of the branch will not fluctuate much if I used a heat gun, as the ambient air will cause little difference.

good point...it just illustrates how inaccurate all the suggestions here can become with all the variables not taken into account

 

[cyberlocc]

Your over thinking it. Put a basic thermometer on the basking spot and see what the temp it. It is also okay if the basking spot is not the same temp though out the day. No matter what you do and how much money you put into it the spot will never keep a perfect 80. The best way to adjust the temps is to rise or lower the bulb or change wattage.

Thought I may be lol. However a lot of people make it out to be like the temp 1 degree could mean certain death. Which it obviously wouldn't be I just let it get to me lol.

I get what you are saying, but you said higher the lamp (what I have doing) or change the bulb. But when? In the current situation I have to raise the bulb every 20 mins as the temp changes hehe. If it goes up I raise it up if it goes down I lower it.

These is amplified by tons of posts I see here when someone says "Your chams basking is at 100 that will kill them" well if we just put the bulb in a spot that is usually 80, it could easily hit 90 for a baby if the weather changes. With an adult that needs 90, it could easily hit 100.

So thats what I am asking, is that okay. If i set my bulb in a spot that is 80, (which is suggested for my baby) I could come back in 20 mins and it will be 85, (which is said to be too hot) so what I just lower the bulb every 20mins? As if I dont lower it and come back in 20 more mins its 78? The temperature in a room can and does fluctuate by 10 degrees all day every day. Whether your house is centrally cooled or not (unless the central air is only in that room of course, even then by 5 easily)

So change it every 20 mins? Thats what I have been doing and its getting old.

Or is 85-90 degrees fine for a few hours a day and I am worrying too much?

 

[Virgil1972]

Thought I may be lol.

I get what you are saying, but you said higher the lamp (what I have doing) or change the bulb. But when? In the current situation I have to raise the bulb every 20 mins as the temp changes hehe. It goes up drop it down it goes down raise it up.

These is amplified by tons of posts I see here when someone says "Your chams basking is at 100 that will kill them" well if we just put the bulb in a spot that is usually 80, it could easily hit 90 for a baby if the weather changes. With an adult that needs 90, it could easily hit 100.

So thats what I am asking, is that okay. If i set my bulb in a spot that is 80, (which is suggested for my baby) I could come back in 20 mins and it will be 85, (which is said to be too hot) so what I just lower the bulb every 20mins? Thats what I have been doing and its getting old.

Is the room temp also going up and down like that? Does your basking spot temp go up and down like that all day?

 

[kiwilulu]

The basking temperature will be determined mainly by the basking bulb and not the ambient temperature. Leave it on for one hour and measure. That is your temp. Your room temp will go up a few degrees during the day but 10 degrees higher room temp does not translate into 10 deg higher basking temp. It is not additive.
When I say to raise or lower the bulb, I am taking about fine tuning once a month or so... Not every 20 min.
Also, try to put your cham where the temp doesnt vary that much. It is ok for them to have lower temps at night but things get complicated the more variables you introduce.

 

[cyberlocc]

Is the room temp also going up and down like that? Does your basking spot temp go up and down like that all day?

Well yes, the basking spot (measured by a air thermometer) if I have the light at a place where the temperature reads 80 in the basking spot. And the temperature in the room is at 70, however if the temp of the room goes up to 80, the basking spot goes to 90. Its a screen cage it is at the mercy of the rooms temperature, with the light bulb adding heat of course.

That is why I said should I use a heatgun instead? With a heat gun you will get a reading of the temperature of the branch (IE the heat the bulb is actually putting on the surface). However with the zoomed thermometer I have on the basking spot reads the air and that will be all over depending on the rooms temp.

To answer your question that was an example, I have seen the basking thermometer read at 86 however. That is with a 60 watt bulb about 12 inches away and that was a hot day for here. Its still semi winter here night temps are in the 30s, with day mostly in the 60s-70s, yesterday however it got to 78 and the cage was at 87. However today with the bulb at 12 inches, it gave me 76. This is more so impacted by is the rooms door closed or open? is the heat on? is the front door open? That is what I am saying controlling the temperature of air is pretty much impossible.

All that doesn't even taking in misting, when I mist the cage, the temp drops from 80 to 75, so what move the light down? There has to be an easier way to do this lol. Or I am overthinking the swings.

I get the bulb is set, lets say that a 60 watt bulb puts out y degrees of heat at 12 inches away. If the air at 12 inches away is 70 that will raise the temp by X, if the temp in the room is 80 it will raise it by Z ect.

Well the temp in the room is always changing so is the temp of the basking spot. So there lies if I set it to 80 when? Do I set it to when its the hottest part of the day its 80? therefore most of the day is less, or do I set it to where most of the day is 80 and during hot times it could read higher. Then the Swamp comes on and drops that temp again.

 

[cyberlocc]

Okay so I found this as well. Looks like Zilla is thinking the same.

They state for there,
INTENSE BASKING SPOT LAMP PT2196 - 25W

So that goes right back to what I am saying. The bulb will be 91f if it is 4 inches away that is the heat that will be delivered to the branch/animal. The air temp at 4 inches will be wildly different than that. As it would be in the sun in nature.

So I grew up in phoenix its hot very hot. Anyway, its so hot that the concrete would be able to cook an egg fairly quickly in the summer time. The air temp is no where near hot enough to cook an egg, but the sun beating down on the concrete made it so hot it could (concrete absorbs heat).

Thats what I am saying it cant be both ways. Either a Temp gun and the branch temp is what matters or the air is. Those 2 things will never be the same. And the temp of the air will change alot where as branch temps will stay pretty much consistent.

 

[cyberlocc]

The basking temperature will be determined mainly by the basking bulb and not the ambient temperature. Leave it on for one hour and measure. That is your temp. Your room temp will go up a few degrees during the day but 10 degrees higher room temp does not translate into 10 deg higher basking temp. It is not additive.
When I say to raise or lower the bulb, I am taking about fine tuning once a month or so... Not every 20 min.
Also, try to put your cham where the temp doesnt vary that much. It is ok for them to have lower temps at night but things get complicated the more variables you introduce.

Well that would be amazing if it worked. It doesnt, I know its not additive that was just a random example that was easy to illustrate. However I work from home and have the ability to monitor the temps all day. I promise you at least in my case if the room ambient goes up so does the basking temp. The highest I have seen it with the light at 10 inches, was 86, the lowest same height was 78, that is a huge gradient. The room was likely 78-80 when it read 86. The rest of the readings were at around 68-70.

I would say I will try a different thermometer, but worried about the temps I bought a thermostat (On/Off) and now have 2 both showing the same swings. It is a screen enclosure they do not hold temperatures. If it were glass than I would agree it would hold a more consistent temperature. But in a mesh enclosure that is open to the rooms ambient the basking spot is at the extreme mercy of room temp.

However I understand what you are saying if 75-85 is fine. However on these forums and other care sheets they make it sound like life or death that it must be 80 not 81 not 79. So are temperatures between 75-85 fine? if so then okay. However just leaving a bulb in 1 spot in a screen enclosure and expecting it to not fluctuate is simply wrong.

I dont like the current thermostat. As sometimes I go in there and the light is off for 5-10 mins, others I go in and the temp is reading 77c. Its set to turn off at 83.5 (its C based)

Also to the additive comment I get that, however it is additive not in a direct way though. If at 70 degrees the light can raise the temp by 15. However at 80 degrees it can raise the temp by 10. That is 85 and 90, again those are just examples. I do have the means to test this however and I might just do that.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

If the temps measure a bit higher or lower, there is no crisis. If you measure the air temperature right above the basking branch and between the bulb, with a thermometer or temp in and you can keep it 80/90F, the chameleon's own body, color, and position will help it reach its optimal temperature. In essence, if it were an unusually cool day and you measure the basking spot to be 78F, the chameleon, using darker colors and its laterally compressed body, could still warm up to 80F or higher, by soaking in the warmth. If the day is warmer and the spot measures 90F, as long as the chameleon can't get itself close enough to the bulb to cause burning and can freely move to cooler temps, has adequate humidity and water, it will simply move away, when it has reached its comfort level, and/or will utilize the warmth slightly further from the focused basking spot.
Hatchlings and young chameleons aren't as efficient at moving to thermoregulate and can become dehydrated or overheated, due to smaller body mass and thinner skin, but with adult and sub adults, this is of little worry, within reason. Aim for 85F and not above 90F and as long as it's between 80-90F and all other criteria are met ( able to move, can't sustain an actual burn due to bulb being too close, and adequate hydration ), don't worry about it. Within a chameleons territory, basking spots aren't the same temperatures everyday and on hot days they may not bask at all, while on chilly or cloudy days, they use what basking spots they can find and soak up the warmth they need or simply slow down a bit, until the sun comes back out.
Measure any way you'd like, but a temp gun is faster and easy to read and can target other areas, in the cage, while a mounted thermometer can allow you to monitor and perfect the basking spot, so the choice is yours!

 

[Virgil1972]

It sounds like it would help a lot if you could control the room temps better. The basking spot will go up and down with the room temps. Temp swings are fine. If the temps goes up and down during the day that is fine. The temps in nature go up and down. The most important thing is to make sure the hottest part of the day is not getting to hot. A regular cheap dial thermometer will measure the temps of your light just fine. They are not just affected by the air temps. To give example just last week I put my less then 10 dollar pet store dial thermometer outside on some brick steps. The outside temps were about 60 and the bricks were cold to the touch but the thermometer read 100 degrees because it was in direct sunlight.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

A thermostat will burn out your bulb faster and constantly having the bulb go on and off is distributive to the animal. If you use one, simply set it to not rise above 90F or 88F, if you prefer, so it acts as a fail safe and isn't constantly turning the bulb off and on. If you find it is turning the bulb on and off, raise the bulb or reduce your wattage.

 

[ispeedonthe405]

As long as both the air and surface temps are safe, in the right range, and your chameleon seems to be comfortable with his hot spots and cool spots, you're fine. I promise you that deviating from the Sacred Ideal is not an instant death sentence, nor does it constitute an implicit declaration of holy war. You may relax.

In fact, you'll likely find that your chameleon has his own ideas about what is ideal and what sucks. Just watch him, keep the temps safe, find out what he likes, and do that.

I wouldn't use a thermostat without investing in something fancier than a light bulb flicking on and off.

 

[cyberlocc]

Spoiler: Spoiler

If the temps measure a bit higher or lower, there is no crisis. If you measure the air temperature right above the basking branch and between the bulb, with a thermometer or temp in and you can keep it 80/90F, the chameleon's own body, color, and position will help it reach its optimal temperature. In essence, if it were an unusually cool day and you measure the basking spot to be 78F, the chameleon, using darker colors and its laterally compressed body, could still warm up to 80F or higher, by soaking in the warmth. If the day is warmer and the spot measures 90F, as long as the chameleon can't get itself close enough to the bulb to cause burning and can freely move to cooler temps, has adequate humidity and water, it will simply move away, when it has reached its comfort level, and/or will utilize the warmth slightly further from the focused basking spot.
Hatchlings and young chameleons aren't as efficient at moving to thermoregulate and can become dehydrated or overheated, due to smaller body mass and thinner skin, but with adult and sub adults, this is of little worry, within reason. Aim for 85F and not above 90F and as long as it's between 80-90F and all other criteria are met ( able to move, can't sustain an actual burn due to bulb being too close, and adequate hydration ), don't worry about it. Within a chameleons territory, basking spots aren't the same temperatures everyday and on hot days they may not bask at all, while on chilly or cloudy days, they use what basking spots they can find and soak up the warmth they need or simply slow down a bit, until the sun comes back out.
Measure any way you'd like, but a temp gun is faster and easy to read and can target other areas, in the cage, while a mounted thermometer can allow you to monitor and perfect the basking spot, so the choice is yours!

Cool good to know all this reassurance is good I just want the best I can give for the little guy .

Spoiler: Spoiler

It sounds like it would help a lot if you could control the room temps better. The basking spot will go up and down with the room temps. Temp swings are fine. If the temps goes up and down during the day that is fine. The temps in nature go up and down. The most important thing is to make sure the hottest part of the day is not getting to hot. A regular cheap dial thermometer will measure the temps of your light just fine. They are not just affected by the air temps. To give example just last week I put my less then 10 dollar pet store dial thermometer outside on some brick steps. The outside temps were about 60 and the bricks were cold to the touch but the thermometer read 100 degrees because it was in direct sunlight.

It really would and in the "Man Cave" he will be going in I will do exactly that. However in the main house where he is atm, I would have to severely alter the house to do so and the wife doesnt like it hot. I have been keeping the temps around 70-75 as best as possible and am already on the couch for that lol. (she likes it more so mid 60s)

A thermostat will burn out your bulb faster and constantly having the bulb go on and off is distributive to the animal. If you use one, simply set it to not rise above 90F or 88F, if you prefer, so it acts as a fail safe and isn't constantly turning the bulb off and on. If you find it is turning the bulb on and off, raise the bulb or reduce your wattage.

Ya I dont trust the thing much myself. I didnt want to drop the cash on the Spyder Electronics until I was sure if it was needed. I will set this one to 90 for now and get the new room and cage done ASAP.

As long as both the air and surface temps are safe, in the right range, and your chameleon seems to be comfortable with his hot spots and cool spots, you're fine. I promise you that deviating from the Sacred Ideal is not an instant death sentence, nor does it constitute an implicit declaration of holy war. You may relax.

In fact, you'll likely find that your chameleon has his own ideas about what is ideal and what sucks. Just watch him, keep the temps safe, find out what he likes, and do that.

I wouldn't use a thermostat without investing in something fancier than a light bulb flicking on and off.

Thanks, ya I was probably reading too much into it. I guess I just have new chameleon owner syndrome I want everything to be perfect for him(or her not sure yet). And ya I just grabbed this one to see if I actually needed to invest in the Spyder one.

He sure does, today I was looking for him for a long time couldn't find him. My wife looked couldn't find him lol. So it turned out he was chilling on the thermometers cord. Which comes from the roof down wards (in the corner). My cage is wood and has a wooden beam right there, he was hiding under the beam for shade I guess from the UV and the basking light. I would guess the temps up there are high, but he didn't want the light or the UV. He was there for a while too, maybe an hour or 2 then he moved to right under the light.

Maybe he was trying to get a nap in lol. He seems to not like the schedule I have him on, he must have jet lag lol. I turn lights on at 7:30 and off at 8:30. However he doesn't seem happy when the lights come on, and when I turn them off he is still awake I checked last night he stayed up for over and hour with the lights off. However tonight I went to turn the lights off (5 mins earlier) and he was on a low branch of the ficus with his tail curled up(where he seems to sleep the last 3 nights same spot every night). So I guess he is changing his schedule now or trying to.

 

[gotwqqd]

A thermostat will burn out your bulb faster and constantly having the bulb go on and off is distributive to the animal. If you use one, simply set it to not rise above 90F or 88F, if you prefer, so it acts as a fail safe and isn't constantly turning the bulb off and on. If you find it is turning the bulb on and off, raise the bulb or reduce your wattage.

Then use a variable rheostat

 

[cyberlocc]

Then use a variable rheostat

See I was going to do this myself. A dimming thermostat, however I seen a few threads stating they are bad as well. When the bulb dimms to match the heat the bulb can get pretty dim and the light diminishes. Since chams are arboreal they rely on sunlight to bask them, vs a hot rock. They want that bright light and if you dim it then they dont like that, or thats how I understood it anyway.

That could be 100% wrong just read it a few times so I figured I would mention it.