I was just thinking....

[TheFabricator]

So im new to the forum and i have been reading a lot on here and online. Everyone seams to always stress about making the chams habitat as close to natural as possible or it wont be happy. This just seams odd to me. If all the chams we are getting are captive bred then obviously they don't know what a "natural habitat" feels like. To me i would think that as long as its well taken care of it can ultimately acclimate to whatever set up we choose to house them in. I have also noticed that people really frown on glass cages. Im not trying to start a debate but am i wrong thinking what im thinking about a cham acclimating to whatever we house them in? Now im not saying put them in a cardboard box and as long as we feed them they will be ok but seriously what do you guys (and gals) think?

 

[juju]

Imo glass enclosures are fine as long as they have they proper vents for air flow they reason I make their set up as close to where they are found as I can is because in the wild that's what works for them close and I wouldn't want any of my chams to get sick or have anything happen because I didn't do everything I have been tought, really that's why I continue to do what I do.

 

[GrimsbyPatchwork]

In my opinion a glass tank is suitable as long as it still has a drain system so that the water from the system can be flushed out and avoid still water which can be a breeding ground for parasites...I housed my 5 month old Jackson`s in a glass tank for a bit and he was happy...I solved the problem by just adding a computer fan to an opening on one side of the tank...when I put the fogger on from the other opening of the tank you can easily the airflow stream.
As for making their setup as natural as possible, it certainly makes them happier and i`d rather my chameleon is happy than just fine because although most are captive bred I still think that instinct is still in them to be attracted towards their natural environment. In fact if you have the cham on your hand and you put him close to a tree or branch they immediately try to go on it!

 

[mrlloyd]

when my eggs hatch next year, i will be experimenting with glass enclosures. i like the screen cages because they are cheap&easy to build. i just see glass enclosures easier to make drain with out a big drainage system. and i think the glass enclosures look better.

 

[DavidBuchan]

Well, it does depend on what you mean by natural. Live plants are better for all sorts of reasons. Humidity, potential to eat them (potentially dangerous if plastic). Also, it's possible that the chams can tell the difference better than we can - lots of plants have markings that are invisible to humans.

Most people recommend having no substrate but that is not natural. Also, in the wild they just don't eat much in the way of crickets or calcium powder

Things that they really need are branches and leaves, if that's what you mean by 'natural' - A Veiled chameleon will not just acclimate to having no branches to climb, because the species has evolved to live there whether or not the individual has ever seen real trees before.
Lastly - I always say it doesn't matter at all what the enclosure is made of providing the life support systems are in order (temps, light, ventilation, humidity). Cardboard would work fine, as long as it doesn't get wet.........

 

[Hoj]

- A Veiled chameleon will not just acclimate to having no branches to climb, because the species has evolved to live there whether or not the individual has ever seen real trees before.
....

My thoughts exactly

 

[Decadancin]

I'm not sure if making them "happy" is the issue. Comfortable is a different story. Just because an animal is captive bred does not mean it will be able to handle an environment unlike its one would be in the wild. It may be healthier or adapt better to captive conditions, but most chams in the wild do not live in the cages we generally use. Glass cages and screen enclosures offer a different set of challenges to the keeper, and no one answer is right OR wrong. Each animal is different and will react to things in its own way. By following certain guidelines we are able to avoid some costly vet bills and hope to have a healthy and long living friend! (and by friend, I mean of course the reptile that tolerates us because we supply food and cant stop taking pictures of )

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Captive bred really only prepares them for better stress and human interaction adaptation. It does not change that their feet are specially designed for climbing in trees, like David said. It also does not change their need for appropriate ventilation and humidity to keep their skin healthy, prevent shedding issues, help good eye health, etc. The biggest thing it does not prepare them for is thousands of years of evolution as a prey animal giving them specific instincts to need to hide amongst foliage like they would in the wild to keep them safe from predators. True, there are no predators in captivity (or shouldn't be) but they do not know that and everything in their brain says that they need to be high and be able to hide. It also tells them go bask in sunlight and drink off the leaves. They are only several generations, if that, removed from their wild ancestors so the instincts are all very strong. We can't expect them to change their programming so quickly. So it's true that they've never seen a tree or natural environment, but their brain knows general concepts that it needs so they still seek them out.

Captive bred is not equivalent to domestication. Domesticated species have changed their evolutionary instincts due to their reliance on humans in a safer environment and thus we can do things differently. Dogs do not have the instinct to develop their own packs and I'm pretty sure most dogs would not be able to go out and hunt a big prey animal like their ancestral wolves do.

Good question though. It's always good to think about the why behind things.

 

[Carlton]

They are only several generations, if that, removed from their wild ancestors so the instincts are all very strong. We can't expect them to change their programming so quickly. So it's true that they've never seen a tree or natural environment, but their brain knows general concepts that it needs so they still seek them out.

Good question though. It's always good to think about the why behind things.

There's another aspect of a "natural" environment to consider. Part of the fascination we have in our captive chams comes from observing how they respond to their environment. How they move around (using that specialized body, feet, tail, etc), how they maintain their health (basking, drinking, hunting), how they react to changes in their world (displaying to intruders, thermoregulation). If we provide as much of their natural world as we can, we get to see more of their unique abilities. Now I know the typical cham cage isn't very comparable to the wild, but it can still provide much of the most important aspects of it (if it didn't we wouldn't keep any alive).

When you think about it, a condor is a rather ugly bird when seen up close sitting on an artificial perch in a zoo cage even if it's perfectly healthy. That same condor riding the thermals on its amazing wings, finding food with those incredible senses is totally beautiful because it is perfectly suited to that place and that action. We can't all go see wild chams doing their thing in their native habitats of course, but a cham in a suitable habitat is still more beautiful than one sitting bored and frustrated in an artificial setting.

 

[TheFabricator]

Thanks for all the responses. Some really good points. I was just wondering what people thought about this. I myself would like to have a natural environment for my Cham.

 

[absolutbill]

Just my two cents - ever go to a zoo and see a tiger pacing it's enclosure? That's instinct - most tigers are captive bred as there are so few in the wild, but they still have the instinct for more space, thus the pacing. I like to give my guys as natural an environment as possible, as well.