Incubation/Soil Temps

Hey all,

I have been doing tons of research into incubation of some of the rarer species of chameleons and have a questions for those of you that have incubated some of the species from Eastern Madagascar. After digging through the forums, I am seeing that a lot of people provide night and day gradients within your incubation container. My questing is this; What is the average depth that eggs are deposited into the ground, a foot? 9 inches? Further more does the soil temp at that depth really fluctuate that much?

I have hatched dozens of eggs from species like Panthers, Veilds, C. africanus and some Montium and have never provided a day/night gradient, but would be interested to learn how many of you do provide this.


Thanks guys!
 
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I'm not sure about the answers to your questions but I would not be surprised if wild panthers do not dig as deeply as captives, because of environmental factors (things like stones, roots which they often seem to prefer digging near in captivity anyway, maybe soil conditions (dry sometimes and hard packed or clay- don't have a clue if it applies, just tossing out possibilities) compared to captive conditions where soil is loose, tunnels easily and so forth.

But I do know that when I have incubated at constant temps, incubation seems to last sometimes very much longer (13 months long a couple of times for panthers for me!). Conversely large (8-10degree) day/night temp fluctuations for me have often resulted in much shorter incubation times- often as short or nearly as short as seasonal temperature variation (where eggs are incubated in the mid 70s for a couple of weeks, cooled to mid 60s for a couple of months, then back up to the mid 70s for the remainder).

I feel like (haven't done a scientific weighing and measuring of hatchlings) the babies that hatch with the longer incubation times are often smaller, and often have more "umbilical" stuff attached and that those with shorter incubation times seem to be larger, stronger, and come out clean without the stuff still attached.

That is just my casual observation- but it is one made over many years experience trying different things.

I feel like with the longer incubation times, diapause may end and development begins as a last hope survival effort on the part of the egg, rather than from environmental cues triggering development while resources are still strong for the embryo. Again though- just a personal opinion without good research backing it, but based on many years and many clutches observed under different conditions.
 
I'm not sure about the answers to your questions but I would not be surprised if wild panthers do not dig as deeply as captives, because of environmental factors (things like stones, roots which they often seem to prefer digging near in captivity anyway, maybe soil conditions (dry sometimes and hard packed or clay- don't have a clue if it applies, just tossing out possibilities) compared to captive conditions where soil is loose, tunnels easily and so forth.



But I do know that when I have incubated at constant temps, incubation seems to last sometimes very much longer (13 months long a couple of times for panthers for me!). Conversely large (8-10degree) day/night temp fluctuations for me have often resulted in much shorter incubation times- often as short or nearly as short as seasonal temperature variation (where eggs are incubated in the mid 70s for a couple of weeks, cooled to mid 60s for a couple of months, then back up to the mid 70s for the remainder).



I feel like (haven't done a scientific weighing and measuring of hatchlings) the babies that hatch with the longer incubation times are often smaller, and often have more "umbilical" stuff attached and that those with shorter incubation times seem to be larger, stronger, and come out clean without the stuff still attached.



That is just my casual observation- but it is one made over many years experience trying different things.



I feel like with the longer incubation times, diapause may end and development begins as a last hope survival effort on the part of the egg, rather than from environmental cues triggering development while resources are still strong for the embryo. Again though- just a personal opinion without good research backing it, but based on many years and many clutches observed under different conditions.


Thank you for the info Flux. So do you always incubate your eggs with a major day/night fluctuation?
 
Nope.

Just personal situation at the moment though. (No longer have a "cold room" available to me.)

Plus I'm always messing about with trying different things. I had a seasonal with the final months having a day'night fluctuation in addition to the cool season prior, and that was my fastest incubation. Want to do that again, but at the moment I am also at the mercy of the seasons. Until I can afford to get a cold room situation remade, at the moment my eggs are in the cabinet under the sink in the kids bathroom.

feel like there is a difference in hatch size and starting vigour of the hatchlings, but after a few weeks, I doubt it makes much difference how they were incubated. (I could be wrong though- I read a study once on how incubation temps effected tail length of frilled dragons! Stuff is crazy)
 
Awesome. Thanks for the info. Right now I am incubating at about 66 degrees and will gradually decrease it until about mid fifties and then bring it back up to match the seasons in eastern Madagascar.
 
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