Interactions between Biliverdin, Oxidative Damage, and Spleen Morphology after Simulated Aggressive Encounters in Veiled Chameleons...posted this befo

[kinyonga]

I know I've posted his before but I think it's worth posting again.

"In sum, we found that even in the absence of physical contact, agonistic encounters can have negative effects (e.g., decreased body mass) in potential combatants. However, these stressors, which are common in veiled chameleons, failed to induce any other detectable effects in hematocrit, oxidative damage, relative spleen size, or biliverdin production, suggesting that these species are generally robust to such ecologically relevant stressors, or that actual fighting may be necessary to affect these parameters"...

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0138007

 

[Sonny13]

That was one experiment, thanks for sharing again, wonder if it also comes in account for females. This could be a reason why Grumpy from @MissSkittles was loosing weight, if she would be in constant eyesight of Stella. Or am I talking **** here?

 

[MissSkittles]

That was one experiment, thanks for sharing again, wonder if it also comes in account for females. This could be a reason why Grumpy from @MissSkittles was loosing weight, if she would be in constant eyesight of Stella. Or am I talking **** here?

Grumpy is in between Stella and Jack, but their views of each other are fully blocked. Across the room is Hammlet and Kali, but I have a divider curtain blocking those views too. However, because Jack is wanting to come out and sit on my arm daily, she does see him for a few minutes each day. I do see her looking at him, but she shows no visible signs of being stressed.
While it’s nice having all of my chams in the same room, I’m probably going to end up moving at least two of them back into my bedroom for practical purposes...reduce the cumulative heat in the room and hopefully be able to give my girls double sized enclosures like the boys have. That will also reduce the risks of them seeing each other at various times.

 

[Sonny13]

Grumpy is in between Stella and Jack, but their views of each other are fully blocked. Across the room is Hammlet and Kali, but I have a divider curtain blocking those views too. However, because Jack is wanting to come out and sit on my arm daily, she does see him for a few minutes each day. I do see her looking at him, but she shows no visible signs of being stressed.
While it’s nice having all of my chams in the same room, I’m probably going to end up moving at least two of them back into my bedroom for practical purposes...reduce the cumulative heat in the room and hopefully be able to give my girls double sized enclosures like the boys have. That will also reduce the risks of them seeing each other at various times.

I´m thinking alongside with you, because these things are very interesting and it´s worthwhile information for all of us, it can have a huge learning curve. Because, your chams are in perfect health with spot on husbandry (and love and care) and yet we observe things. Most of us won´t share this information until they´re in need for help. This makes think as well, because my panther and jackson can see each other as well with boundaries between it and they don´t show any stress signs, or seen to bother each other, still it could induce stress.

 

[MissSkittles]

In the wild chameleons are able to see each other at various times, but I think they must have their defined territories. As long as another cham doesn’t enter their territory, they have no problem. So that would be having their own trees or other large area. When their territory is limited in captivity to such a small space, I think that’s when they get stressed. So then, how do they define their territory when in captivity? Is it limited to just their enclosure or does instinct spread it beyond their ‘walls’? Being in a confined space, their options for fight or flight are limited to just fight, as there is no where to flee to. Just from other’s sharing some of their experiences, I get the impression that free-ranged chams (not kept in enclosures) are better adjusted and less likely to show aggression. Does having the ability to have somewhere to escape to help reduce their general stress levels? How then do they define their territory? Could you theoretically have one cham in one corner of a largish room and one in the opposite and they wouldn’t be stressed? So many questions and so few answers. Maybe someday someone will take interest and look into finding the answers…without decapitating the test subjects.

 

[kinyonga]

I can tell you that some veiled females, for example, will start producing eggs when they see a male. Sometimes it seems they can even "sense" the male is in the room and become receptive.

If you keep two veiled females (again for example) in the same cage/territory chances are very good that at least one of them will decline in health and likely even die. They have no where to escape to.

As for distance that thy need to be apart to live in the same room...I haven't tested that.

 

[MissSkittles]

I can tell you that some veiled females, for example, will start producing eggs when they see a male. Sometimes it seems they can even "sense" the male is in the room and become receptive.

If you keep two veiled females (again for example) in the same cage/territory chances are very good that at least one of them will decline in health and likely even die. They have no where to escape to.

As for distance that thy need to be apart to live in the same room...I haven't tested that.

Yes, Stella‘s few views of Hammlet have triggered her cycles (this is the second time). Those two have gone to great lengths to catch glimpses of each other. It’s odd, but Grumpy and Hammlet have seen each other too and no reaction from either of them.
I didn’t know that they may be able to sense that there is a male in the room. That makes the decision of which chams to move into my bedroom easier…the boys.

 

[kinyonga]

Yup...back in the days before the wheel was invented ...a number of us noticed that the veiled females seemed to at times seemed to know that the males were around. It might be vibrations or pheromones or maybe something else?

 

[MissSkittles]

Yup...back in the days before the wheel was invented ...a number of us noticed that the veiled females seemed to at times seemed to know that the males were around. It might be vibrations or pheromones or maybe something else?

Very interesting! Stella has always seemed to know where Hammlet is. Whether she was tearing down a piece of the coco coir that blocked her view of him right next to her or escaping to the top of her enclosure door to peek over the curtain at him across the room.

 

[Sonny13]

In the wild chameleons are able to see each other at various times, but I think they must have their defined territories. As long as another cham doesn’t enter their territory, they have no problem. So that would be having their own trees or other large area. When their territory is limited in captivity to such a small space, I think that’s when they get stressed. So then, how do they define their territory when in captivity? Is it limited to just their enclosure or does instinct spread it beyond their ‘walls’? Being in a confined space, their options for fight or flight are limited to just fight, as there is no where to flee to. Just from other’s sharing some of their experiences, I get the impression that free-ranged chams (not kept in enclosures) are better adjusted and less likely to show aggression. Does having the ability to have somewhere to escape to help reduce their general stress levels? How then do they define their territory? Could you theoretically have one cham in one corner of a largish room and one in the opposite and they wouldn’t be stressed? So many questions and so few answers. Maybe someday someone will take interest and look into finding the answers…without decapitating the test subjects.

Good questions and share the feeling on most of the them. I definitely find that free ranging and providing them a complete room (pretty large) does trigger some natural and yet non territorial behavior within different species. But, I don’t wanna speak about it in the open sections of the forums, however I got tons of interesting observations. Yet, non are long term and/or known what the long term effects are. That’s why I find all parameters so interesting and wanna collect as much possible. Personally, I think within different species you can find, in certain circumstances, harmony because they don’t feel them as direct rivals and just as a fellow inhabitant (I’m not talking within confined space). The trouble would lay within the same species. This would be same situation as in nature, different species of chameleons live within the same area/tree without bothering each other.
This is such interesting materie…..could talk/brainstorm endless about it.

 

[Sonny13]

I can tell you that some veiled females, for example, will start producing eggs when they see a male. Sometimes it seems they can even "sense" the male is in the room and become receptive.

If you keep two veiled females (again for example) in the same cage/territory chances are very good that at least one of them will decline in health and likely even die. They have no where to escape to.

As for distance that thy need to be apart to live in the same room...I haven't tested that.

That’s my feeling about it as well, can’t confirm it.

 

[Sonny13]

Yes, Stella‘s few views of Hammlet have triggered her cycles (this is the second time). Those two have gone to great lengths to catch glimpses of each other. It’s odd, but Grumpy and Hammlet have seen each other too and no reaction from either of them.
I didn’t know that they may be able to sense that there is a male in the room. That makes the decision of which chams to move into my bedroom easier…the boys.

It’s bizar when they’re in their cyclus. Bella is all the time in her free range without leaving it, however she becomes receptive it’s crazy. I can’t keep her in, she’s always on the move, searching for something (probably a male) and noticed behavior of displaying herself in front of the window with the most beautiful colors (sounds weird I know) however it looks she’s showing herself and trying to attract someone

 

[Sonny13]

Yup...back in the days before the wheel was invented ...a number of us noticed that the veiled females seemed to at times seemed to know that the males were around. It might be vibrations or pheromones or maybe something else?

I don’t know when or how often they communicate with each other, but my veiled uses her vibrations on the back of her head a lot towards me, when I come close to her, you see the vibrancy on both end flaps of her head

 

[Sonny13]

Very interesting! Stella has always seemed to know where Hammlet is. Whether she was tearing down a piece of the coco coir that blocked her view of him right next to her or escaping to the top of her enclosure door to peek over the curtain at him across the room.

My bet is the vibrancy communication