Is human baby water good/bad for cham?

[Zen Reptiles]

Pediatricians aren't really a credible source, they and most other doctors just regurgitate what is taught by big pharmaceutical corporations which run the world. Doctors for the most part are just agents of these corporations.

If you know a doctor, don't be offended, be informed: CORRECTLY prescribed medications - which have different interactions, intolerance, etc in each person - is the fourth leading cause of death in the USA. Behind Heart Disease, Cancer, and Medical Mistakes respectively. Doctors actually make up 50% of the top 4 leading causes of death in the Western world.

Case in point is the lack of natural healing over on this side of the world, such as the Gerson Therapy....whearas there are entire Gerson Therapy Institutes in Japan.....(Gerson therapy is healing with certain vegetable and fruit juices which has proven to cure many diseases by providing the nutrients the body needs to heal itself and is frowned upon in Western medicine)....

I just want to touch on what Elizadolots said...

Like just about everything, it's good and bad depending on quantity to body mass. I'm pretty big, I can take some fluoride in my water and it's good for my teeth. The same is true of children over 3, they should get some fluoride daily.

Actually if you are 'pretty big' you have more to worry about. Most of these toxic chemicals are actually stored in fat tissue. One factor to the obesity epidemic is that fat tissue stores toxins until the liver can cleanse them out of the body......too many toxins would be an overload and cause death.....so the body's answer to a toxic overload is to store them in fat cells. More toxins in your diet = more fat cells to hold them.

And giving that kind of advice is one of the most irresponsible things you could do. If someone actually believed you, you'd be directly responsible for their health problems maybe 15-20 years down the road that they wouldn't have had otherwise. Don't recommend things if you don't know all the facts. There is countless medical evidence that fluoride in the water does absolutely nothing for your teeth, and children develop IQ problems (it makes you dumber...and is actually fed to children in Christian fundamentalist schools in the States to reduce their logic and intelligence, to make them not question what they are taught..)

Also, Paracelsus didn't have to deal with Monsanto.

 

[JackP308]

Yea Fluoride is no good that is for sure. I think our city water supply raised the amounts, mind control at its finest. Im a conspiracy theory type though.

 

[DekuScrub]

"it makes you dumber...and is actually fed to children in Christian fundamentalist schools in the States to reduce their logic and intelligence, to make them not question what they are taught"

lol i was actually gonna drop the "it makes you dumber and dumber people are easier to control and dont question authority" but i didnt want to look like a conspiracy theorist and have my statement discredited. makes you wonder why they dump it in public water.....

 

[Zen Reptiles]

Of course there are conspiracies. They're not theories if they are actually going on.

Question everything. (unless you've had too much fluoride)

 

[RPCV]

Most fluoride is excreted in urine within 24 hours of ingestion. The remainder is mostly stored in bones/teeth (not so much in fat). Then again, we're not chams and I would be surprised if anyone has studied the metabolic processes and mechanism of action of adverse health outcomes related to fluoride ingestion in chameleons. So really, advice on this thread is nothing but a guess. That being said, I doubt the amount of residual fluoride in a rinsed bottle would be a problem - but giving it straight up might be more a risk than it’s worth.

Paracelsus' approach to toxicology is just as correct today as it was 500 years ago. "The dose makes the poison". This applies as much to manmade chemicals as it does to naturally occurring substances. In fact, Mother Nature has been much more successful than man in coming up with some really nasty sht. Then again, she's been working at it much longer.

 

[tkilgour]

Fluoride has tons of controversy right now! Critics are even saying dentist should not be using it or recommending it to anyone. Many states are now taking it out of tap water. I would avoid the water if it has fluoride in it. The companies that are putting it in baby water should be sued.

 

[JackP308]

Most fluoride is excreted in urine within 24 hours of ingestion. The remainder is mostly stored in bones/teeth (not so much in fat). Then again, we're not chams and I would be surprised if anyone has studied the metabolic processes and mechanism of action of adverse health outcomes related to fluoride ingestion in chameleons. So really, advice on this thread is nothing but a guess.

Advice that fluoride is not good for you is a guess? Really go ahead drink as much as you want just because you urinate it out it 24 hrs. who cares right. :roll eyes: I don't take the approach well its not hurting me why not.

That's like saying alcohol has no effect on the body its out of your system by the next day.

 

[Hoj]

i like milk

 

[tkilgour]

i like milk

LOL, Hoj I like Organic Hemp Milk and Organic Soy Milk. I will not touch cows milk.

 

[Hoj]

LOL, Hoj I like Organic Hemp Milk and Organic Soy Milk. I will not touch cows milk.

oh hey i got my fuel yesterday, waiting till teus to play with it, day off
my gf likes almond milk. i acctaully perfer choc milk

 

[RPCV]

Jack - you either did not fully raed my post or simply did not understand it.

Pounding a gallon of milk always makes for a great night. (Esspecially after eating a bowl of colorful fruit loops)

 

[JackP308]

Jack - you either did not fully raed my post or simply did not understand it.

I wouldn't assume either Im very well at reading and comprehending.

 

[Elizadolots]

Fluoride has been a controversial subject for decades.

However, I don't think there's any controversy on the issue here:

It's not good for chameleons, don't give it to them.

 

[Solid Snake]

Most fluoride is excreted in urine within 24 hours of ingestion. The remainder is mostly stored in bones/teeth (not so much in fat).

The benificial effect of flouride on teeth is topical. Meaning it is only effective when applied directly to the surface of the teeth.
The main buildup of ingested flouride(that is retained in the body) is in the pineal gland.
http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/pineal/

Reptiles rely more on their pineal gland:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_eye
They use it for thermoregulation, and hormone control, and such.
Leading me to believe it would be especially detrimental to them in particular.
Thus, the conclusion:

Fluoride has been a controversial subject for decades.

However, I don't think there's any controversy on the issue here:

It's not good for chameleons, don't give it to them.

 

[RPCV]

OK - I'll bite. It's good to dive deep into a topic and read the thoughts of others. Never too old or stubborn to learn. Matters of scientific dispute keep me employed and it would be very boring if we always agreed. Just to be clear, I don't think we are saying anything different; using water with 0.7 mg/l as a drinking source for a cham is not a good idea. We just differ in our logic and approach when forming this opinion. My opinion is the risk would be minimal for direct consumption of this water and negligible if the bottle is rinsed and reused (an earlier post indicated the concern was related to re-use of the bottle). But in this case there is no need to take on any risk when the option of another water source is so simple.

In general, scientific data should meet three criteria; it should be relevant, reliable and reproducible. In the case of fluoride in chams none of the studies are really relevant and most certainly have not been reproduced (please correct me if there is something in the literature specific to cham ingestion of fluoride). Comparing mammal to mammal studies is a stretch and mammal to reptile is a leap. This is why I believe opinions (mine included) are guesswork (educated guesses - but still a guess).

One of my pet peeves is the use of websites citing a few studies to make a point. There is extensive data on fluoride consumption and all studies have varying levels of bias, confounding or general flaws in design. I believe the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR) provides a very comprehensive, unbiased review of the literature and it is publicly available. This document contains a list of citations that is 86 pages long.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp.asp?id=212&tid=38

In sections 3 and section 8 there is reference to No Observed Adverse Effects Level (NOAEL) and Lowest Observed Adverse Effects Level (LOAEL). These values are based on the widely accepted toxicology premise that all substances have a level that below which the exposure/dose would not have an adverse health outcome. In other words; very low NOAEL/LOAEL then it’s some nasty shit. Very high levels - it’s not so bad. This is debatable for carcinogens - but we're not looking at a cancer end point in this discussion.

The chronic NOAEL for fluoride via oral ingestion is 0.15 milligrams of fluoride per kilogram body weight per day (mg/kg/day). The LOAEL is 0.25 mg/kg/day. In this case it was reported that a liter of water contained 0.7 mg fluoride. Let's assume that a cham drinks 10 CCs of water a day and weighs 100 grams (I'm not a cham expert and got this from other posts on the forum - correct me if this is off but it appears to be somewhat conservative and makes the math easy). There would be 0.0007 mg/CC in the water. Consuming 10 CCs would be a dose of 0.007 milligrams. 100 grams is 0.1 kilograms. So the chams dose via ingestion would be 0.07 mg/kg/day or approximately half the NOAEL. My opinion that there would be minimal risk.

Now if this is a re-used bottle - fluoride salts in water are soluble and there would be very little residual left. Even if 1% remained and this was not further depleted by repeated bottle use then we are talking fluoride dose orders of magnitude below the NOAEL - and therefore negliable risk.

My earlier post regarding excretion of most fluoride in urine and most of the remainder being stored in the bones and teeth is from the ATSDR document section 1.4 and chapter 3.

 

[tkilgour]

Fluoride has been a controversial subject for decades.

However, I don't think there's any controversy on the issue here:

It's not good for chameleons, don't give it to them.

Very well said! + Rep