Is this guy a sambava?
- Thread starter Zoohouse87
- Start date
Multivitamins
Chameleon Enthusiast
Not experienced with sambava but I believe they have more orange and yellow coloration. Who'd ya get him from?
But it could be possible that comes with age. My ambilobe was blue when younger and then was green and blue as sub adult and is now nearly all red as an adult. A lil fired up and looks like a stunner either way.
But it could be possible that comes with age. My ambilobe was blue when younger and then was green and blue as sub adult and is now nearly all red as an adult. A lil fired up and looks like a stunner either way.
xxaprilrose
Established Member
looks ambilobe to me
Zoohouse87
New Member
I got him from LLL Reptiles. They normally are really great with selling/ sending the right reptile but now I’m a little worried. I know he is smaller still and the color just starting to develop more.
MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
Hopefully someday soon there’ll be an easy and affordable way to assure locale. https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/panther-chameleon-locale-test-crowdfunding-project.185819/
LukeTheLizard
Avid Member
I’m pretty sure he’s an ambilobe, either way, he is so beautiful!
EmilioTheAnkify
Established Member
Take another pic….is that blue or green?
Kaizen
Chameleon Enthusiast
I’m glad @MissSkittles posted that imterview! Please bear with me while I get a bit technical: it’s mostly in the service of precision (and little in the service of my ego).
The results from a similar test in Europe revealed only -13% of subjects displayed locale purity. If the findings are similar in North America, we are forced to accept one of the following for captive pardalis:
1) “Sambava” means “the genetic kind (ie set of genetic properties) unique to the pardalis from their geographic namesake. “Sambava” refers to animals that satisfy that description.
2) “Sambava” means “that set of properties, the possession of which amounts to a superficial similarity between the bearer and the genetic kind unique to pardalis from Sambava, Madagascar.” “Sambava” refers to animals satisfying that description.
(For thoroughgoing externalists, just tweak the above to make the description determined by actual facts about the animals, instead of facts about our mental states. (CUT THE CAKE ANY WAY YOU LIKE!)
To be clear, if we find out that very few captives are pure, so to speak, we are faced with a choice between two distinct meanings (and, ipso facto, referents) of “Sambava”. Call the former the PURE view, and the latter the NEO view. Now, you are welcome to draw lines on the sand and hold obstinately to one or the other, but here’s a test to see where you actually stand.
Let’s assume you purchase a baby panther from a litter of what is claimed to be pure Nosy Be. You chose this baby because he is from a line of bright blue Nosy Bes. In a year’s time, you realize something is wrong. Everyone else who bought a male from this clutch now owns a bright blue panther. But, yours is indistinguishable from a Mesoala. You decide to confront the breeder, who swears your chameleon is sibling to the bright blue males others have purchased. Likewise, he swears to the purity of his lines—insisting that they contain 100% Nosy be genetics.
You’re skeptical, and demand a test. Astonishingly, it supports your breeder’s pronouncements. Despite appearances, your male is genetically indistinguishable with respect to the genetic markers unique to Nosy Be. Again, this is unlikely, but not a impossible. All Nosy Bes may share unique genetic markers for that region, but these genetic markers needn’t be the ones responsible for colour; colour genetics may vary with local, but without any causal link. Colour homogeneity might be the result of genes that aren’t unique for a particular locale. Or, perhaps some otherwise harmless microorganism caused the colour variance. The point is you have an adult chameleon that is visually indistinguishable from a Mesoala, but genetically indistinguishable from a Nosy Be.
What do you do? Here’s the intuition pump: Do you hold firm to the PURE view, and accept that you have a pure Nosy Be that is visually indistinguishable from a Mesoala? When you have fellow hobbyists over to show off your animals, do you insist on explaining the situation, while simultaneously recognizing their inevitable skepticism? Do you post pics of your Nosy Be on social media, knowing what will inevitably follow? Maybe you do.
My gut tells me that the majority of us will argue with the breeder along the following lines: “I don’t care what the genetics test says! I wanted the kind of blue chameleon that every else has! I made it clear when I bought this that I wanted a chameleon that looked like that (pointing at the blue sire), whatever the genetics!” And if you sympathize with this line, then you clearly hold the NEO view.
To be sure, no breeder will guarantee grade A babies, and getting a Nosy Be that is more muted and greenish is a risk you accept, and beyond the control of the breeder. But I chose Mesoala because this is not just a case of diminished vibrancy. For all intents and purposes, it’s very different chameleon. To take this one step further, what if the breeder had recently picked up a very bright blue panther, of known mixed locales. If he offered to swap you, would you accept?
Furthermore, what if we discovered that the best modern examples of true blue Nosy Bes are consistently the result of mixed lineage of a particular type (say 75% Nosy be and 25% ambilobe). E.G. Those individuals we think of as the height of Nosy Be perfection are invariably linked to a specific mixed lineage, so that what we think of when we think of blue Nosy Bes actually share similar mixed lineage. To be clear: the situation is that we learn that our ideal Nosy be is always a cross, and pure Nosy Bes actually fall far short. What are we to do? Likely, we’ll distinguish between the more muted wc nosy Bes, and the cb individuals that we enhance by mixing the wc with our existing stock (25% ambilobe) and selecting for colour. Now we have two definitions of Nosy Be: Nosy Be wc, and nosy Be Cb. Ugh! This will likely precipitate an explosion of new variants using superscripts, or abbreviations or some other such; and the whole thing will get extremely convoluted. The alternative is to realize what actually matters to us, then use whatever name we want to mean that very thing. If you are against using locale names, fine. However, I’m pretty confident that the way hobbyists use locale names conforms more to the NEO view, than the pure view: I didn’t want a white and red one, I wanted a blue one; genetics be damned!”
By all means, take a principled stance in favour of the PURE view, but my guess is you’ll be in the minority. In most cases, hobbyists mean whatever satisfies their tacit ideal of a Nosy Be, Sambava, ambilobe, etc. And if that’s true then mudslinging and accusations of elicit crossing are often moot debates. Sure, intentionally misleading someone is morally wrong, but if a breeder has done everything s/he can to preserve what s/he took to be pure stock, but genetics tests reveal mixed lineage, what culpability does the breeder have? In fact, I’d be happier with a potentially mixed lineage than a Nosy Be that looked like a mesoala.
So, what do you mean when you use the terms “Sambava” “ambilobe” “nosy be?”
To the OP, maybe you have a Sambava, maybe you have an Ambilobe, and probably you have some mixed genetics in there. If you’re disappointed in the magnificent animal you have, I think you’re nuts, but that’s up to you. If you take it up with the breeder, do so because it doesn’t conform to your expectations, and not because he may have mixed lineage. Unless of course the breeder was just a sneaky git.
End note: The idea of reassessing what we mean by our locale names was brought up by several people recently, so this is not an original idea by any means.
MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
Kaizen
Chameleon Enthusiast
A brief, prolific moment.
EmilioTheAnkify
Established Member
lol
MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
While I’m one of those that just appreciates the chameleon regardless of locale, I think if I wanted and paid hard earned money for a blue Nosy Be, I would be wanting it for color aesthetics rather than locale purity. That is just my opinion though. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Kaizen
Chameleon Enthusiast
And when you say “Nosy Be,” do you mean something with a specific genetic profile, or something that resembles what you think of when you think of nosy Bes?
MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
We tend to think of Nosy Be’s as being teal blue and other panther colors according to locales. Does anyone know why the different locales tend to have different colored panthers? What in their environments caused them to evolve differently? In time, being away from their natural environment, will all panther’s eventually evolve to one homogenous palette?
Sorry @Zoohouse87 for derailing your thread.
Kaizen
Chameleon Enthusiast
I am totally incompetent here. I don’t even know if we should assume that colour variation between locales serves any evolutionary purpose. Could be an incidental trait.
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