Kidney failure cause?

[wurmpie]

Hello everyone,

My baby chameleon died of kidney failure two weeks ago (rip )
Original thread: https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/chameleon-is-not-eating-drinking.146194/
I am considering getting a new baby chameleon, but I want to make sure this doesn’t happen again.

Symptoms he had: grabbing his own legs (He did this since we got him), runny urate

Later when he got really sick: lethargic, sunken eyes, closed eyes, no good grip, weak, pop-sound while breathing, discoloration.

He didn’t have the orange urate, gout and swollen ankles, neither had he crooked or weak bones.
I find it a bit strange because of that.
He also had some flagellates and mites in his bowels, but not enough to cause renal failure.
It could also be caused by dehydration, my humidity was around 40 and I sprayed 3x per day. Also had a dripper installed but he didn’t use it.

I used the following feeding scheme:

Calcium without D3- almost every day (Calcium without D3)
Minerall outdoor (no D3) once every week (Minerals without D3)
Minerall indoor (with D3) once every two weeks (Minerals with D3)
Reptivite (vitamins with D3) once every two weeks (Multivitamin with D3)

I gutload the feeders, primary with fruits and veggies. for dry food I use cereals and fishfood. I powder the fruits and veggies with Vit-All.

The vet said to give vitamins more often, and put calcium with D3 in the spraying water.

Another reptile vet I contacted said to use mineral indoor (Minerals with D3) every day, together with calcium. She also recommended nutri-grub, some sort of worm with calcium in it.

I have some questions, I want to make sure to do it good If I buy a new cham ,

1. Is it common for chameleons this young to die of kidney failure? He was only 5 months old.

2. Since I got him, he has been grabbing his own legs for branches. Is this normal? I read it was because MBD.

3. Should I change my mineral/calcium scheme?

4. Is Nutri-grub a good source of food?

5. Shouldn’t kidney failure go slower? He went from good condition to dead within 5 days.

6. Can low humidity (40) cause kidney failure? His urate was always runny and white.

7. Should I put calcium with D3 in the spraying water?

The upper picture was taken two days before he died

This picture was about two weeks before he got sick

this was a few hours before we went to the vet. he looks very sick

I hope you have some advice for me

 

[kinyonga]

How was it determined to be kidney failure?

 

[jajeanpierre]

I'm really sorry you lost your little chameleon. I remember when it happened and my heart went out to you then.

Who determined it was kidney failure he died of? How did they determine it was kidney failure? Did you have an necropsy done?

I'm a bit confused on your description of mites in his gut. Can you elaborate on how they found mites in the bowel?

The pop sound you heard when he was so very sick, do you think this is gurgling/popping from congestion in the respiratory systems? Was it very close to death or for days before?

Did you give him any medications? Did he die in your care or was he left at the vet's? (I seem to remember that you left him and he died in the vet 's care--is that correct?)

Reading the recommendations for supplementing that the vets are giving you seem really high to me. I have a montane species, and I hardly supplement with vitamins at all. Also, don't gut load your feeder insects with fish food or dog food.

If he died of kidney failure, it seems it was sudden. I've had a couple of animals that ultimately died of kidney failure (a very old dog and cat) and one of the hallmarks of kidney failure is muscle atrophy as the body cannibalizes the muscles for their protein. I don't know if it is the same with chameleons, but I can't see why it wouldn't be. Chronic dehydration can lead to kidney failure, but it is usually not so sudden. Your chameleon was all nice and plump two weeks before he died. That doesn't suggest long-term kidney failure to me, but I'm no veterinarian. I wonder if there was a toxic element involved. Or the vet made an error when he was treating him. I've had two big vet errors recently, one killed the chameleon and the other almost did. And, unfortunately, those things happen. Few vets will say they made a mistake and your animal died. I know that's true with human doctors as well.

I don't know that you will ever get an answer for why and what you could have done differently but I hope you find peace with it. Your grief is palpable. I'm so sorry.

 

[wurmpie]

The vet did a necropsy on him, some days after he died. He called this Friday and said it was kidney failure.
He found the mites on the fecal that we brought, together with some amoebas. He didn’t find any mites on the skin of the chameleon. Since the poop was almost a week old, I am thinking they might have been plant mites (that sat on the ficus?) I don’t know if that’s possible.
I’m not sure if there were also mites in his bowels. Mites only sit on skin, right?

The pop sound made little noise, you could only hear it if you were very close to the cham. It happened a few hours before he died, right before we went to the vet.

He died at the vet. I left him at the vet, the vet still tried to feed him, but he died that afternoon.
I think if I kept him at home, he would have died too. His condition was very poor.

I’ve had a veiled chameleon before, who died of kidney failure. It went very slow indeed. He first fell down his branch once, then twice, then once a week, twice a week, every day, and ultimately he couldn’t hold onto his branches anymore. He also had the thick ankle gout, and sneezed salt sometimes, but the real problem came only after the kidney failure was very advanced, he stopped eating and fell off his branches. I bought him from an individual who didn’t give him good supplements, and when I got him, I gave him Minerall indoor once every 3 days, with a good uv light. Not the best either.

This time, I thought I would do everything right. I went to a good breeder and got all the right advice, good supplies and everything. It went very fast. He did great, then two days before he died he fell of the branch once, but climbed back up afterwards. The day after he couldn’t hold on to his branches anymore and sat with his eyes closed.
So yes, it’s a very strange case. I don’t think the vet did something wrong, he only tried to give food and water. I’m just really hoping it won’t happen again.

 

[jajeanpierre]

The vet did a necropsy on him, some days after he died. He called this Friday and said it was kidney failure.
He found the mites on the fecal that we brought, together with some amoebas. He didn’t find any mites on the skin of the chameleon. Since the poop was almost a week old, I am thinking they might have been plant mites (that sat on the ficus?) I don’t know if that’s possible.
I’m not sure if there were also mites in his bowels. Mites only sit on skin, right?

The pop sound made little noise, you could only hear it if you were very close to the cham. It happened a few hours before he died, right before we went to the vet.

He died at the vet. I left him at the vet, the vet still tried to feed him, but he died that afternoon.
I think if I kept him at home, he would have died too. His condition was very poor.

I’ve had a veiled chameleon before, who died of kidney failure. It went very slow indeed. He first fell down his branch once, then twice, then once a week, twice a week, every day, and ultimately he couldn’t hold onto his branches anymore. He also had the thick ankle gout, and sneezed salt sometimes, but the real problem came only after the kidney failure was very advanced, he stopped eating and fell off his branches. I bought him from an individual who didn’t give him good supplements, and when I got him, I gave him Minerall indoor once every 3 days, with a good uv light. Not the best either.

This time, I thought I would do everything right. I went to a good breeder and got all the right advice, good supplies and everything. It went very fast. He did great, then two days before he died he fell of the branch once, but climbed back up afterwards. The day after he couldn’t hold on to his branches anymore and sat with his eyes closed.
So yes, it’s a very strange case. I don’t think the vet did something wrong, he only tried to give food and water. I’m just really hoping it won’t happen again.

The noises he made just before he died might have been a "death rattle" (terminal respiratory secretions), which is indicative that death is imminent. (The vet did not find any evidence of respiratory infection on necropsy.) Terminal secretions are part of the dying process. I think you are correct that he was going to die no matter what you did or who treated him.

After your veiled, I'm sure you are aware that death from kidney damage can happen years after the original stress on the kidneys. You probably also are aware that dehaydration, whether long term or a single event (such as when importing wild caughts) can take years before the failing kidneys can no longer keep up and toxins slowly build up until finally the animal succumbs to kidney failure. Most kidney failure takes a long time to show up, which is not what happened with your chameleon.

Do a google search of Acute Kidney Failure and you'll find a kazillion causes of it. Did you medicate him for any reason before he became noticeably ill? I really don't think you will never know the cause of your animal's acute kidney failure. I might lean towards some sort of toxin or a blockage. If it were me, I would throw out all the supplements just in case something toxic was in one. I would toss all the plants. Some plants from the big box stores now come with stuff that is a long term insecticide that is right in the plant. (I can't remember the name of what they are treated with but the name reminds me of nicotine.) I would toss all the plastic plants, too. A chameleon drinks off the leaves of plants, and toxins in the plastic or the live plant itself might become dissolved in the water on the leaves--and where does he drink his water from???? If you are on a well, you might think about having the water tested. I would change suppliers for my insects just in case they fed the insects something toxic that didn't kill the insects but somehow damaged your chameleon's kidneys. I acknowledge that my responses are largely superstitious, but really won't do any harm.

As for your supplementing schedule, it looks like you are supplementing very heavily. I do not believe your supplements caused accute kidney failure, but I think when you get a new chameleon, you will want to revisit it. For some reason, chameleons do not handle supplementing like other lizards do, and some species of chameleons are more sensitive than other. But again, I do not think that over supplementing would have caused accute kidney failure unless the manufacturer had a production error--and it does happen. There is very little quality control or regulations pertaining to even human-grade supplements and what is written on the package might not be what is in the package.

I hope I have helped a little.

 

[Bush baby]

In a nut shell, i think a lot of diseases seen in Chameleons can be traced back to having too much phosphorus in their diet, due to the poor calcium: phosphorus ratio that exists in most feeders.

 

[jajeanpierre]

In a nut shell, i think a lot of diseases seen in Chameleons can be traced back to having too much phosphorus in their diet, due to the poor calcium: phosphorus ratio that exists in most feeders.

What evidence do you have?

 

[Bush baby]

What evidence do you have?

Over the years, i have read many members on here reporting that their sick chams blood work came back with elevated phosphorus levels after a vet visit.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Over the years, i have read many members on here reporting that their sick chams blood work came back with elevated phosphorus levels after a vet visit.

I think high phoshates levels are often not the primary cause of illness, and in people, are often asymptomatic. Usually, an underlying disease is causing the high phoshate levels. Kidney failure is often the cause.