Large, bioactive cage build! Please critique!

[etclement]

Hi! I am going to upscale my current 24x24x48 screen cage to a large DIY cage (Dimensions later). I am going to make it bioactive and full of live plants, because I personally feel that a 2 foot cham will eventually get tired of a 2 foot cage. To clarify, Clay, my cham, is a male veiled, about 3 months 1 week old. I want to move him to a bigger cage early on, and this summer is a great time to do it. Anyways, back to the plans. The viv will be bioactive, automized, and planted. It may also use Great Stuff Pond and Stone. There will be screen on both sides. I will now go through my plans for the cage, please critique anything you deem not optimal.

The Cage:
My chameleon will certainly be able to roam in this cage! You can see the main horizontal dimensions here. The front view is here! I may also split it up or use my old cage for a female if I'm allowed to start a breeding project

Substrate:
The substrate will be compromised of three layers (Bad google drawing). The bottom layer will be perlite or another medium to hold water below a certain point (1-2 inches). The next layer will be screen to keep the soil out of the perlite. The third layer up will be NEHERP's Improved ABG mix (NEHERP Vivarium Substrate: Original). Depending on the density of that substrate, I may or may not keep the plants potted. Springtails and Isopods, both not wild caught, will be added as microfauna. I will use some kind of leaf litter as well. Most of this I have learned from frog viv channels and sites, so if any of this isn't right for a chameleon, let me know!

Plants, Coverage:
Currently, I have enough plants for a portion of the viv in my current cage. I have a 5' tall Ficus that I use for freerange of sorts, a 4' tall Dracaena tree, two 1-1.5' tall Pothos vines, a small Parlor Palm, an orange, small leafed Coleus, a red, large leafed Coleus, and a Kiwi Fern Coleus. I also have 3 fake vines, and 10 small tillandsia. It would be greatly appreciated if anyone could weigh in on more plants to use! I'm going to put the ficus inside the new cage, so another tree might not be necessary, but I'm open to suggestions.

Water:
I will be getting a mistking over the summer, once the cage is completed. Since the bioactive substrate requires a drainage layer, a pvc pipe will run through the cage (shown by the cylinder in the drawing). It will extend from under the cage to about 0.75-1 inch above the cage floor, and will be covered with screen. This will allow the water to be drained when it reaches a certain level in the drainage layer, yet keep the water table in it sufficient. I will also have a little dripper for drinking water. The mistking will most likely be set for 3min at 7:30am, 3min at 11:00am, 3min at 3:00pm, 3min at 5:00pm, and 2.5 min at 8:30.

Lighting:
Honestly, I have no clue what lights I am going to use. All my plants (and chameleon) have grown well so far with just my room light, a reptisun 10.0 13w, and a 75w spot basking lamp on. I could possibly buy bigger tube lights, or get another copy of the light fixture I am already using and create two basking spots.

Feeding:
I will cup feed until I know Clay is big enough and acquainted with his cage.

Thanks for reading! I would love suggestions for plants, especially a few bromeliads. And again, feel free to critique or change anything if you feel it would be better for the chameleon(s?)!

 

[Goose502]

Sounds like a very interesting project. The size of the cage is amazing, and your plant list is much better than most. I would ditch the perlite personally. Best bottom layer is by far clay balls/volcanic rocks or a false bottom using the lighting diffuser material. A bulkhead would also be useful if your plants don't keep up with the misting. My automated system mists much more often than your planned one, and all my plants soak up the water. I actually water about once a week just for the plants, and I rarely have any water sitting in the drainage area. Remember that you should complete the vivarium, and let it run its coarse without your chameleon in it for at least 3 months. This will give the plants a chance to establish themselves, and you will be able to fix any issues you may run into. Can't want to see your progress.

 

[etclement]

Sounds like a very interesting project. The size of the cage is amazing, and your plant list is much better than most. I would ditch the perlite personally. Best bottom layer is by far clay balls/volcanic rocks or a false bottom using the lighting diffuser material. A bulkhead would also be useful if your plants don't keep up with the misting. My automated system mists much more often than your planned one, and all my plants soak up the water. I actually water about once a week just for the plants, and I rarely have any water sitting in the drainage area. Remember that you should complete the vivarium, and let it run its coarse without your chameleon in it for at least 3 months. This will give the plants a chance to establish themselves, and you will be able to fix any issues you may run into. Can't want to see your progress.

Thanks for the reply! The plants will be potted, so I don't have to worry about them acclimating that much. I also found some better substrate than perlite, here(The LDL). I do have a bit of a problem to overcome, though. I cant have the new cage and old one in the same room without it getting really cramped, so I am going to get the base build first so I can acclimate the microfauna and plants in time to put Clay in the cage. I am also planning on using Jungle Dawn LEDS for plants and effect, do you have any experience with them?

 

[etclement]

I will also be getting the plants early on to make sure they are stable.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

As someone who has done this very thing and used some of the plants (coleus for one) you've mentioned, I'll give you some advice.

Coleus and orange trees are plants that require more light than is easily provided inside of a cage. In the case of citrus, low light equates to infestations of mites and scale. Save yourself the trouble and omit those 2 plants.
For color, consider calathea, zebra plants, or other types of lower growing Draceana, there is also Chinese Evergreen aka agloenema(spelling may be slightly off), and chlorophytum 'fire flash'/ 'orange flash'.
For additional trees, shrubs, or medium to tall plants, there are several Ficus types, alii, microcarpa, fiddle leaf, and so on. Other great choices are coffee, miracle fruit, and Magnolia figo. These do better in medium lighting conditions.
Your substrate is not ideal for a few reasons. ABG mix is great for pot growing some plants, but long term it will not be pH stable and the particles that make up the mix are ingestible snd could pose problems. You need to be able to pump or drain the bottom, which is looks like you have addresses with your bottom. Sunshine Mix #4 is a great, ready to use product, that will support isopods, springtails, and plants just fine. If your veiled is unusually persistent at eating the perlite in the sunshine mix, you can cover it with almond, Magnolia, or other large, slow to decompose leaves, lava rock, or lay down a layer of wee block fabric and cover that with soil something that does not contain anything problematic. Everyone thinks organic is a must for chameleons, but not fertilizing the plants isn't going to result in continued long term health. I use Osmocote granules for fertilizing and these are harmless to the soil organisms and the chameleon, with the caveat he should not be permitted to ingest large amounts of it. It is pelleted and slow release, so will feed 3-9 months. Some are designed to feed for a year, but plan on 3-9 months.
Lighting is going to be expensive. If you plant plants that are low growing in the bottom, you will need several $60-$70 LED spots to reach the bottom and these same lights can scorch foliage that is less than a foot away, though they are not hot and pose no risk of burning the chameleons. Otherwise, you should use 4-6 48" HOT5 tubes and possible and Mega Ray for UVB and additional lighting for the plants. If you want additional help, pm me and I can provide some products and resources to help you save a bit and understand what you need and why. Lightyourreptiles.com has what you need, but I'd recommend the MegaRay from reptileuv.com and possibly one or 2 of their halogen baskers, because the Arcadia Mercury Vapor bulbs and baskers were not strong enough for my tall enclosure, though they are great products for less demanding and less gargantuan set-ups.
I have built 2 of these enclosures in the last year and have learned a lot as I go about what works and what doesn't. If you want to see what I did with mine, use the search feature and search for "Epic Parsonii" and that should bring up the thread.
Good luck and can't wait to see it finished. Veiled are really active and should be given a lot more space than most keepers provide, so I'm glad to see someone doing more than the minimum for a change and thinking outside of the box.

 

[etclement]

As someone who has done this very thing and used some of the plants (coleus for one) you've mentioned, I'll give you some advice.

Coleus and orange trees are plants that require more light than is easily provided inside of a cage. In the case of citrus, low light equates to infestations of mites and scale. Save yourself the trouble and omit those 2 plants.
For color, consider calathea, zebra plants, or other types of lower growing Draceana, there is also Chinese Evergreen aka agloenema(spelling may be slightly off), and chlorophytum 'fire flash'/ 'orange flash'.
For additional trees, shrubs, or medium to tall plants, there are several Ficus types, alii, microcarpa, fiddle leaf, and so on. Other great choices are coffee, miracle fruit, and Magnolia figo. These do better in medium lighting conditions.
Your substrate is not ideal for a few reasons. ABG mix is great for pot growing some plants, but long term it will not be pH stable and the particles that make up the mix are ingestible snd could pose problems. You need to be able to pump or drain the bottom, which is looks like you have addresses with your bottom. Sunshine Mix #4 is a great, ready to use product, that will support isopods, springtails, and plants just fine. If your veiled is unusually persistent at eating the perlite in the sunshine mix, you can cover it with almond, Magnolia, or other large, slow to decompose leaves, lava rock, or lay down a layer of wee block fabric and cover that with soil something that does not contain anything problematic. Everyone thinks organic is a must for chameleons, but not fertilizing the plants isn't going to result in continued long term health. I use Osmocote granules for fertilizing and these are harmless to the soil organisms and the chameleon, with the caveat he should not be permitted to ingest large amounts of it. It is pelleted and slow release, so will feed 3-9 months. Some are designed to feed for a year, but plan on 3-9 months.
Lighting is going to be expensive. If you plant plants that are low growing in the bottom, you will need several $60-$70 LED spots to reach the bottom and these same lights can scorch foliage that is less than a foot away, though they are not hot and pose no risk of burning the chameleons. Otherwise, you should use 4-6 48" HOT5 tubes and possible and Mega Ray for UVB and additional lighting for the plants. If you want additional help, pm me and I can provide some products and resources to help you save a bit and understand what you need and why. Lightyourreptiles.com has what you need, but I'd recommend the MegaRay from reptileuv.com and possibly one or 2 of their halogen baskers, because the Arcadia Mercury Vapor bulbs and baskers were not strong enough for my tall enclosure, though they are great products for less demanding and less gargantuan set-ups.
I have built 2 of these enclosures in the last year and have learned a lot as I go about what works and what doesn't. If you want to see what I did with mine, use the search feature and search for "Epic Parsonii" and that should bring up the thread.
Good luck and can't wait to see it finished. Veiled are really active and should be given a lot more space than most keepers provide, so I'm glad to see someone doing more than the minimum for a change and thinking outside of the box.

Thanks for the advice! I was actually inspired by your epic parsonii build . By ABG mix, do you mean the NEHERP #1, or the actually ABG or both? I will look into that lighting too... should one of these do?

 

[jamest0o0]

Did/doing bioactive with both my panther's free ranges... my advice-take @Extensionofgreen 's advice lol, it's crazy how much he knows about this stuff. Can't wait to see how it turns out for you, love the bioactives.good luck!

 

[Extensionofgreen]

Both substrates, ABG and NEHERP ABG will tend towards acidic conditions and compete for available nutrients as the bark and sphagnum moss decomposes. Sunshine Mix is buffered with lime and composed of environmentally friendly, aged, composted coir, which is a by product of the coconut industry and is much more stable for growing plants. Early test on coir showed issues with coir, due to salts and phytochemicals produced by the coconut palms to prevent competition with other plant material, but composted, inland coir, has none of these issues and the companies that sell it for horticultural uses batch test it to ensure its suitability.
I'm happy that you found in inspiration in my parsonii build. I always strive for the best, rather than "adequate", because it's easy to see how inadequate a sparsely planted 4' enclosure must seem to a formerly wild animal or even a CB animal that evolved to live amongst lots of foliage in the natural sunshine.

 

[etclement]

Both substrates, ABG and NEHERP ABG will tend towards acidic conditions and compete for available nutrients as the bark and sphagnum moss decomposes. Sunshine Mix is buffered with lime and composed of environmentally friendly, aged, composted coir, which is a by product of the coconut industry and is much more stable for growing plants. Early test on coir showed issues with coir, due to salts and phytochemicals produced by the coconut palms to prevent competition with other plant material, but composted, inland coir, has none of these issues and the companies that sell it for horticultural uses batch test it to ensure its suitability.
I'm happy that you found in inspiration in my parsonii build. I always strive for the best, rather than "adequate", because it's easy to see how inadequate a sparsely planted 4' enclosure must seem to a formerly wild animal or even a CB animal that evolved to live amongst lots of foliage in the natural sunshine.

I would love to do Sunshine 4 but it's 85$ per bag... is there anything I can add to/ remove from the ABG or NEHERP mix to make it better?

 

[Davecameos]

I would recommend to use clay balls for the first layer and not perlite.
Arcadia jungle dawn led is great for plants. I have been using them for more than 2 years and plants are thriving.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

It's only $40 a bag! Look for a distributer. I buy mine from a hydroponics store. I bet the ABG mix will be much more in the quantity you will need to fill the bottom to 18" deep, as is advisable for best plant growth and laying places for female chameleons.

 

[etclement]

It's only $40 a bag! Look for a distributer. I buy mine from a hydroponics store. I bet the ABG mix will be much more in the quantity you will need to fill the bottom to 18" deep, as is advisable for best plant growth and laying places for female chameleons.

Ok, I'll try and find a provider. I was looking off of amazon, where it is 73-85$ for 3 cubic feet.

 

[etclement]

I would recommend to use clay balls for the first layer and not perlite.
Arcadia jungle dawn led is great for plants. I have been using them for more than 2 years and plants are thriving.

Thanks for the reply. I am using Neherp LDL for drainage, and I will try out the Jungle Dawn!

 

[etclement]

It's only $40 a bag! Look for a distributer. I buy mine from a hydroponics store. I bet the ABG mix will be much more in the quantity you will need to fill the bottom to 18" deep, as is advisable for best plant growth and laying places for female chameleons.

I think I found a provider. How many UVB MegaRay 100w should I get for the cage, and do I need heat lamps with it?

 

[Extensionofgreen]

I'd only get one and I'd get some of the halogen baskers or you may prefer the GE reveal bulbs that lightyourreptiles sells as baskers. I have no way of telling what wattage you need or what type, since my needs and ambient conditions are different than yours. LYR has halogen baskers and you may need the larger wattage ones. I needed 75 watt halogens, but I also need a lower basking temp than you do.

 

[etclement]

I'd only get one and I'd get some of the halogen baskers or you may prefer the GE reveal bulbs that lightyourreptiles sells as baskers. I have no way of telling what wattage you need or what type, since my needs and ambient conditions are different than yours. LYR has halogen baskers and you may need the larger wattage ones. I needed 75 watt halogens, but I also need a lower basking temp than you do.

Ok thanks! Do you use jungle dawn for plant growth as well, or something else?

 

[Extensionofgreen]

I use several things. You can PM me for explanations and details, as I prefer not to take away or inappropriately endorse any product or company, but simply state what I use and why. Sometimes product choices are about the needs of my set-up and not how great a company is or isn't. If I announce every product I use, I risk swaying people away from perfectly wonderful businesses that could meet their needs, when otherwise, I only purchased products elsewhere out of necessity and not because X brand or Y brand or company is good or bad.

 

[Uli]

Hello, I will be getting a YL Parsonii baby in a couple of days. His baby cage is set up according to the standards of the breeder. Meanwhile I want to start the bioactive large Dragon Strand Atrium.
I would be using lava stone and the Bio Dudes bioactive reptile substrate/earth ( don't know what it's called). I was planning on only planting smaller pants on the bottom, but keep the larger plants like the Schefflera in their plastic pots so I can take them out if I have to rearrange things and the size of the pot will control the growth. The bio active bottom will be all around the two or three plants in pots.
Is there anything you've learned that is specific to Parsonii's that I have to keep in mind when setting up the Atrium? Thank you for your advise in advance.
Uli

 

[cyberlocc]

Hello, I will be getting a YL Parsonii baby in a couple of days. His baby cage is set up according to the standards of the breeder. Meanwhile I want to start the bioactive large Dragon Strand Atrium.
I would be using lava stone and the Bio Dudes bioactive reptile substrate/earth ( don't know what it's called). I was planning on only planting smaller pants on the bottom, but keep the larger plants like the Schefflera in their plastic pots so I can take them out if I have to rearrange things and the size of the pot will control the growth. The bio active bottom will be all around the two or three plants in pots.
Is there anything you've learned that is specific to Parsonii's that I have to keep in mind when setting up the Atrium? Thank you for your advise in advance.
Uli

Nice Necro .

1. Don't use Biodude anything, he Litteraly stole everything he sells from the Bioactive Facebook group. He also charges more than it would cost to make it yourself.

2. As Extension already pointed out, ABG is bad long term, in my case I use Sunshine Mix as well, and for my Malagasy only plant life they all want Acidic soil, so I just add sphag, so you can adjust as needed.

Also, you guys don't seem to understand how much this ABG stuff costs lol. My 4'x2' needed about 6ish CuFT. ABG is about 300 dollars for that, Sunshine mix 50 at Home Depot.

Don't look at the size in the bag, read what size it expands too. It's compressed soil, not loose like ABG.
Here is the Sunshine mix I use. 25 dollars a bag. Now see it says 2.2 CuFT, that's in compressed form. That becomes 4.4 CuFT (read the bag)

Biodudes 99 dollar 2 bags kit, is only 1.2 CuFT per bag, so 2.4 CuFT for 99 dollars, I need 6ish, for 4'x2'x8"

 

[Uli]

Well... that was surely enlightening!!!!

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer!
I will toddle over to Lowes and get the Sunshine Mix then!
What does ABG stand for? I assume it was explained in a thread that I haven't read yet.