Lethargic, underweight, mouth growth (Kinyongia boehmei male)

[fissidens]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Kinyongia boehmei, male, adolescent(guessing, wasn't able to get an age from the seller). I've had him about 2.5 weeks.
• Handling - Once every 1-2 days(multiple times a day currently to try to get him eating more)
• Feeding- 1/4 -1/2 inch Dubias, gut loaded with Repashy SuperLoad Insect Gutload, dusted with Repashy Calcium Plus
  • Feeders: 1/4 - 1/2 inch(estimate) Dubias
    • Gutload: Repashy SuperLoad Insect Gutload
    • Powder: Repashy Calcium Plus
  • Schedule:
    • I gut load about 10-20 dubias every night before bed
    • Each morning I remove any surviving dubias from the previous day and return them to the Dubai colony. I then place the new gutloaded dubias into the feeding area.
• Supplements - Repashy Calcium Plus
• Watering
  • Mist every morning and again in the afternoon/evening
  • I use a diy drip system that is just gravity fed through some airline tubing
    • No set schedule for drip system. I drip at least 10oz in a day in addition to misting
• Fecal Description
  • Has not had a fecal test. I am looking into local exotic vet availability because I would like to get him a fecal test, but it's tough currently.
  • I believe feces look normal, dark center and white liquid around the solids. There was one instance of him passing green tinted feces, but it only happened once about a week ago.
• History - I bought the male and two females from an online distributor, two of the three(1m and 1f) were very underweight upon arrival, the other female looked like she could hain a little weight, but was nowhere near as bad as the other two.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type- 36 x 18 x 18
  • all glass w/ screen top
  • currently horizontal, just waiting on a hardware shipment(any day now) to be able to install front baffles, sliding doors, and turn it upright
  • screen top
• Lighting
  • 2x Exo Terra Repti-Glo 5.0
  • What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
• Temperature
  • I have not found that there is a significant difference in temp from bottom to top. There are higher temps directly under the bulbs
  • evening temp ranges from 68-72F(ambient room temp)
  • day temp ranges from 74-80F
  • Made sure to provide places(branches) for the chams to bask closer to the bulbs
• Humidity
  • Humidity ranges 40-60, usually on the lower end except for right after misting
  • humidity controlled by misting
  • I am using a household humidity sensor(inside enclosure) I got off amazon, I have confirmed it's readings with a secondary humidity sensor
  • What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
• Plants - Ficus Benjamina and Schefflera arboricola
• Placement
  • Currently sitting about 6 inches off the floor(temporary until I can turn it vertical) making the top about 24 inches off the floor
  • In low traffic area, except when feeding dogs(dogs are fed in that room, but otherwise there is little to no traffic)
    • enclosure has a blocked off with a standing barrier to prevent when I am not doing maintenance or handling the chams to prevent them from seeing the other animals
• Location - Seattle
• Additional
  • To prevent stagnated air in the bottom of the enclosure I am using a couple small computer fans
  • The enclosure contains three adolescent chams currently(1m 2f). The seller assured me that they were good in groups, and I did find evidence that they have been kept like this, but I couldn't find a ton of information on the species. I am prepared to separate them if they show any signs of aggression or stress as they grow larger.
  • The two females are doing well, the smaller one was in about the same condition as the male when she arrived but has been slowly putting on weight.

Current Problem

• Growth on mouth
  • When I first got him a couple weeks ago he had a very small bump on the right side of his mouth. It has gotten larger since then and I am starting to worry about it.
• Underweight
  • He was very underweight when he arrived
    • he has not gained or lost any weight since then
  • He has been readily accepting dubia roaches
    • His desire to eat has rapidly dropped over the past two days
    • He ate 1 dubia yesterday morning(hand fed) and 3 dubias(on his own) late yesterday but has not eaten yet today despite attempting to hand feed him(he usually will accept one or two by hand if he hasn't already eaten recently)
  • He has also been drinking less which really has me worried
    • I sat with him for around 20min during lunch today dripping water on a ficus' leaves while he sat on my hand(wouldn't move to the tree)
    • He eventually took two licks of the water off a leaf then went to sleep
• Lethargic
  • This started yesterday. I had hope towards the end of the day because he started moving around the enclosure and even went and ate a few dubias, but today he's noticeably worse

I am realizing now that I should have posted here as soon as they arrived for guidance on how to best treat them and get their weight up. He was readily eating though, so I figured as long as that continued he would be on his way to recovery.

Images:
Shot of just how underweight he is:


Mouth growth:


Enclosure:
Ignore the cardboard, I was trying it out to see if it would help prevent the dripper water from accumulating on the bottom(I was worried about potential bacteria) so I wouldn't need to disrupt the enclosure regularly to clean it up. It's been in since Saturday and will be removed today. (Could this be related to the issue? It loosely correlates with the timing of the issue, but it's clean cardboard, I'm not sure why it would cause any issues)

The white plastic tray on the left is the feeding area. I am currently keeping dubias constantly stocked in the enclosure to attempt to get some additional weight on the chams.

 

[kinyonga]

The mouth bump looks like mouth rot and you need to see a good exotics vet to get it treated. He needs to be on the appropriate antibiotic after a vet cleans it out.

What is on the floor of the cage? Does he eat any insects that are on the substrate?

There's quite a bit wrong with your husbandry and some of it that is specific to this species I won't be able to tell you about changing. I don't keep this species.

Where are the lights on the cage...at one end or in the middle or what?

I would get th females out of there ASAP...like now.

Also...if you have any other reptiles these should be quarantined away from them....in another room.

 

[fissidens]

> What is on the floor of the cage? Does he eat any insects that are on the substrate?

That is just clean cardboard, I was trying it out as a way to wick moisture from the drip system to prevent bacteria growth, but I don't like the result, so it's being removed after work today. He does not eat off of it. The dubias are contained to the white tray on the left which he does eat from. Usually, it has been bare bottom.

> There's quite a bit wrong with your husbandry and some of it that is specific to this species I won't be able to tell you about changing

Anything specific I can do right now? Aside from the enclosure being horizontal and all glass, which are both temporary, I'm not sure what else I am doing wrong. I did do research and from what I found they need temps in the 70-80 range with basking available at around 80-85. I couldn't find much about humidity levels, but it was mentioned somewhere on here that they need approximately the same as veiled, which I believe I am providing.

> Where are the lights on the cage...at one end or in the middle or what?

The lights are over 2/3 of the enclosure, with a shaded area all the way to the right. In the picture one of the lights is not present, I must have just put the top back when I took the picture.

> I would get the females out of there ASAP...like now.

Can you expand upon this? Are you saying the enclosure is bad for them or are you saying they should not be sharing the enclosure? From what little I could find about these they seemed to always be kept together with 1 male and 1+ females. If this is actually not correct husbandry I will need to figure something out for them. I have one enclosure I could move 1 to for now, but don't have two extra enclosures.

Thanks for your time, I appreciate any advice you can provide.

 

[fissidens]

Minor update: I have contacted a reputable exotics vet and am waiting to hear back about an appointment(it may be hard to get in because of reduced staff and hours). The cham has been drinking more when I target drip near him but still hasn't eaten today. I will try hand feeding again when I do the twice-a-week enclosure cleaning today(in about 1-2 hrs).

 

[kinyonga]

> What is on the floor of the cage? Does he eat any insects that are on the substrate?

That is just clean cardboard, I was trying it out as a way to wick moisture from the drip system to prevent bacteria growth, but I don't like the result, so it's being removed after work today. He does not eat off of it. The dubias are contained to the white tray on the left which he does eat from. Usually, it has been bare bottom.
sometimes I can't see things well on my tablet....thought it was sand.


> There's quite a bit wrong with your husbandry and some of it that is specific to this species I won't be able to tell you about changing

Anything specific I can do right now? Aside from the enclosure being horizontal and all glass, which are both temporary, I'm not sure what else I am doing wrong. I did do research and from what I found they need temps in the 70-80 range with basking available at around 80-85. I couldn't find much about humidity levels, but it was mentioned somewhere on here that they need approximately the same as veiled, which I believe I am providing.
I apologize...I meant to answer as much as I can about the hypusbandry...ill do that after I answer this post....but my answers may not cover everything because I haven't kept this species. I hope someone on here who has will chime in.

> Where are the lights on the cage...at one end or in the middle or what?

The lights are over 2/3 of the enclosure, with a shaded area all the way to the right. In the picture one of the lights is not present, I must have just put the top back when I took the picture.
you want to create a chimney effect by having the heat lights all at one end of the cage so the other end is open and helps create air flow...maybe the fans will be enough but I'm not sure.

> I would get the females out of there ASAP...like now.

Can you expand upon this? Are you saying the enclosure is bad for them or are you saying they should not be sharing the enclosure? From what little I could find about these they seemed to always be kept together with 1 male and 1+ females. If this is actually not correct husbandry I will need to figure something out for them. I have one enclosure I could move 1 to for now, but don't have two extra enclosures.
it may be why the male isn't improving for one thing...or it could just be the mouth rot that's his problem. I also would think there would be less stress on the females as well...and if the reason the male isn't gaining weight is because it's sick then maybe it may stop the females from becoming sick too. There are very few species of chameleons that do well in groups.

Thanks for your time, I appreciate any advice you can provide.
you're welcome.

 

[kinyonga]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Kinyongia boehmei, male, adolescent(guessing, wasn't able to get an age from the seller). I've had him about 2.5 weeks.
• Handling - Once every 1-2 days(multiple times a day currently to try to get him eating more)
• Feeding- 1/4 -1/2 inch Dubias, gut loaded with Repashy SuperLoad Insect Gutload, dusted with Repashy Calcium Plus
  • Feeders: 1/4 - 1/2 inch(estimate) Dubias
    • Gutload: Repashy SuperLoad Insect Gutload
    • Powder: Repashy Calcium Plus
    • regarding feeding/gutloading insects...I use greens such as dandelions, endive, escarole, kale, collards, etc and veggies such as squash, zucchini, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, carrots, etc and a bit of fruit such as berries, apples, pears, mango, papaya, etc.
  • Schedule:
    • I gut load about 10-20 dubias every night before bed
    • Each morning I remove any surviving dubias from the previous day and return them to the Dubai colony. I then place the new gutloaded dubias into the feeding area.
• Supplements - Repashy Calcium Plus
• I'll leave this for others to comment on because I don't want to lead you astray.
• Watering
  • Mist every morning and again in the afternoon/evening
  • I use a diy drip system that is just gravity fed through some airline tubing
    • No set schedule for drip system. I drip at least 10oz in a day in addition to misting
• Fecal Description
  • Has not had a fecal test. I am looking into local exotic vet availability because I would like to get him a fecal test, but it's tough currently.
  • I believe feces look normal, dark center and white liquid around the solids. There was one instance of him passing green tinted feces, but it only happened once about a week ago.
• History - I bought the male and two females from an online distributor, two of the three(1m and 1f) were very underweight upon arrival, the other female looked like she could hain a little weight, but was nowhere near as bad as the other two.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type- 36 x 18 x 18
  • all glass w/ screen top
  • currently horizontal, just waiting on a hardware shipment(any day now) to be able to install front baffles, sliding doors, and turn it upright
  • screen top
  • if you turn the cage on the end will you knock out the glass that will be the top? A bigger cage is advised.
• Lighting
  • 2x Exo Terra Repti-Glo 5.0
  • What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
  • The most often recommended UVB light is the reptisun 5.0 long linear tube light.
• Temperature
  • I have not found that there is a significant difference in temp from bottom to top. There are higher temps directly under the bulbs
  • evening temp ranges from 68-72F(ambient room temp)
  • day temp ranges from 74-80F
  • Made sure to provide places(branches) for the chams to bask closer to the bulbs
  • these are montane type chameleons it I dot know the specifics of the temperature in their range...except that it's likely cooler at night than 68F don't know the basking temperature for sure either.
• Humidity
  • Humidity ranges 40-60, usually on the lower end except for right after misting
  • humidity controlled by misting
  • I am using a household humidity sensor(inside enclosure) I got off amazon, I have confirmed it's readings with a secondary humidity sensor
  • What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
• Plants - Ficus Benjamina and Schefflera arboricola
• were they well washed both sides of the leaves?
• Placement
  • Currently sitting about 6 inches off the floor(temporary until I can turn it vertical) making the top about 24 inches off the floor
  • they need to be higher off the floor IMHO...and not blocked off so they can't see out around the room. Also shouldn't be in with other reptiles until your sure they are healthy.
  • In low traffic area, except when feeding dogs(dogs are fed in that room, but otherwise there is little to no traffic)
    • enclosure has a blocked off with a standing barrier to prevent when I am not doing maintenance or handling the chams to prevent them from seeing the other animals
• Location - Seattle
• Additional
  • To prevent stagnated air in the bottom of the enclosure I am using a couple small computer fans
  • The enclosure contains three adolescent chams currently(1m 2f). The seller assured me that they were good in groups, and I did find evidence that they have been kept like this, but I couldn't find a ton of information on the species. I am prepared to separate them if they show any signs of aggression or stress as they grow larger.
  • The two females are doing well, the smaller one was in about the same condition as the male when she arrived but has been slowly putting on weight.this is not as completely answered as I would like...but I've never kept this species and don't want to tell you things that are wrong.

 

[kinyonga]

Thought you might like these sites...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/kinyongia-boehmei-2018-import.163581/

 

[fissidens]

> sometimes I can't see things well on my tablet....thought it was sand.

I plan on setting this enclosure up as bioactive(with no sand, I'm not positive if impaction is a huge concern for chams, but don't want to risk it), but am not moving forward with that until I am positive the chams have a clean bill of health. It'll probably be something I do this fall or even later depending on the condition of the animals.

> it may be why the male isn't improving for one thing...or it could just be the mouth rot that's his problem. I also would think there would be less stress on the females as well...and if the reason the male isn't gaining weight is because it's sick then maybe it may stop the females from becoming sick too. There are very few species of chameleons that do well in groups.

Ah, right, that's embarrassing, I am not new to animal husbandry(but I am new to cham husbandry if that wasn't obvious) and this is something I am well aware of. I'm not sure how I let myself ignore this glaring fact. Thank you very much for providing an explanation.

> regarding feeding/gutloading insects...I use greens such as dandelions, endive, escarole, kale, collards, etc and veggies such as squash, zucchini, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, carrots, etc and a bit of fruit such as berries, apples, pears, mango, papaya, etc.

I do feed the dubias mixed veggies(basically whatever uncooked scraps would otherwise go into the compost after cooking) as part of their normal diet in addition to some dubia feed from an online dubia distributer. The reason I decided to gutload with a premixed formula was, one: it seemed to be a well-liked product, and two: I wanted to reduce the risk of me providing an unbalanced diy gutload due to inexperience during the initial acclimation of the animals. My intent was/is to, over time, do more research into the best way to maintain consistent high-quality fresh gutloads and potentially switch entirely over to that.

> if you turn the cage on the end will you knock out the glass that will be the top?

Yes, the top will have a large mesh section to allow uvb through as well as to maintain good airflow and prevent hot glass which could cause burns. It will essentially be a "euro-style" vivarium but with some cham specific modifications(like more ventilation). I have everything I need right now except the hardware for the doors which is out for delivery today.

> A bigger cage is advised.

This is unfortunate. I specifically went with this species because this is the largest enclosure I can provide right now. As they grow I will keep this in mind and look for opportunities to upgrade the enclosure.

> these are montane type chameleons it I dot know the specifics of the temperature in their range...except that it's likely cooler at night than 68F don't know the basking temperature for sure either.

I can reduce the temp at night by leaving a window slightly ajar, but I am a bit worried that it would end up getting too cold, since that would be a fairly variable method of cooling.

> were they well washed both sides of the leaves?

I did not wash them(aside from regular misting), it didn't even occur to me. Is the concern pesticides? These are plants that have been growing in my home for a few months. I will remove them and do a thorough cleaning today.

> they need to be higher off the floor IMHO...and not blocked off so they can't see out around the room.

Agreed, I didn't think it would be a major concern in the short term, but they will be about 3-4ft off the ground once I turn the enclosure vertical and will no longer be blocked off.

> this is not as completely answered as I would like...but I've never kept this species and don't want to tell you things that are wrong.

Yeah, I'm keeping a close eye on both females. No sign of loss of appetite currently. Do you think I should make a vet appointment for the females too? It might be a good idea just to be safe.

Edit - Update on condition:
He is about the same as yesterday. He stays low in the enclosure, is drinking when I provide water in his direct vicinity. Still have not seen him eat(will try offering a dubia to him with tongs shortly).

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."

I can reduce the temp at night by leaving a window slightly ajar, but I am a bit worried that it would end up getting too cold, since that would be a fairly variable method of cooling"...this would be hard to control...and there is a chill (if you know what I mean) to cold air when you live in a colder climate that IMHO isn't good for chameleons. Just my opinion.

The concern win the plants was the pesticides.

I'd let the females settle in unless there is a concern with their condition. I don't usually just take my chameleons in if there's no health concern.

I hope he will eat for you. Maybe try a soft insect so it won't hurt his mouth so much to chew it?

 

[fissidens]

He didn't eat, I have been looking for an online source of silkworms or butterworms, or any soft body feeder, but have not been able to find much of anything(especially not any that would be small enough). I might try checking what the local box pet store has available. Would mealworms be a good option? I think that's closest I'm gonna get locally(or online) right now.

His vet appointment is tomorrow. Don't think I'll be able to get them a fecal sample though since he isn't eating.

 

[kinyonga]

I wouldn't use mealworms. Is he drinking...If so, I would try getting him to drink and as the mouth is opening and shutting sticking an insect between his teeth so he has to bite down on it.

 

[fissidens]

I was able to place an insect(smallest dubia I could find) in his mouth when he opened his mouth. He hasn't chewed or swallowed as far as I can tell. He just opened his mouth wide and moved the insect around with his tongue like he does sometimes when he's eating, but then closed his mouth and stopped. He seems to have gotten worse since this morning, he seems very weak. I'm worried he won't make it to the vet tomorrow. I'm just letting him rest at this point, trying not to add any unnecessary stress. Hopefully, he'll finish eating the feeder and get enough energy from that to pull through.

 

[snitz427]

As Kinyonga stated, they need consistent night drops to 60 or below. Daytime temps in the low to mid 70s. @PetNcs is very familir with this species and recommends a low temp basking spot for a very short duration in the morning.

I have a pair that I mist mornings and most nights, and fog overnight. They are kept in my basement where temps are easily low 60s, and lighting brings it up to low 70s during the day.

Definitely get them separated and leave them a lone as much as possible. Im sure they just came over in the recent import and are extremely stressed and malnourished from that. Try to feed them and then leave them alone. After theyve gotten through a month in a proper setup, and are less afraid, then stick around a bit more but I still dont handle mine.

Also they likely have parasite loads... if you have (or plan to add) any other reptiles - you’ve potentially just contaminated you dubia colony. I would only offer what they will eat - dont put uneaten bugs back in your colony.

 

[PetNcs]

I’m sorry to say that but based on the picture I think U-turn for help too late

I have described the spaces for science and kept it for many years and visited their area for many times

For keeping this species it is essential to have a very well planted cage and not doing all the mistakes you have done

1. Too high daytim temperature - it must be very low 70s
2. Too high night temperature - it must be 60s
3. Too high daytime humidity - it must be below 50
4. too low nighttime humidity - It must be above 90% with cold fog

The combination of parameters you provide leads to exhaustion and sleeplessness and in that week state any parasite can kill it

If you immediately adjust the conditions and try to feed with pollen that might be still a little chance for him to survive

 

[fissidens]

Thank you for the information. Unfortunately, the male passed last night. I will, of course, take everyone's recommendations and adjust the husbandry for the two females. They are currently each in their own temporary 12"x12"x24" enclosure(vertical). Since I won't be putting them both back into the same enclosure, what is an appropriate size enclosure for an individual? I would like to order their new permanent enclosures asap.

Unfortunately, 68 is the coldest nighttime temperature in my home, so I'm not sure what I can do about that. Also, the daytime temps in my home are in the mid to high 70s during the summer. It doesn't seem like I have the appropriate temp range to properly care for these.

I'm feeling pretty dejected about this whole experience. I went against my better judgment and believed the seller when they said they were a "good beginner chameleon" and "captive-bred" and that my enclosure was "plenty big for a trio". I also bought them on an impulse which you should never do with animals. I mean, I was already shopping and planning for a chameleon, I just should have asked the community for better husbandry information for this species before buying. This is my first experience failing an animal and it's not something I'd care to repeat.

Also, if anyone knows an experienced cham keeper in the PNW who would want to take the two females, I would happily rehome them to someone who can care for them better than I can. I, of course, am going to do everything I can to properly care for them while they are with me, whether I rehome them or not.

---

> if you have (or plan to add) any other reptiles - you’ve potentially just contaminated you dubia colony. I would only offer what they will eat - dont put uneaten bugs back in your colony.

That is a really good point. These dubias were in my feeder bin where I keep the small dubias and were not returned to the breeding colony. I will dispose of the ones that came in contact with the leftover insects, disinfect, and start over.

I don't have any other reptiles right now. I just recently moved to a new home where I can now keep reptiles again after not having any for a couple of years. This was my step back into reptiles.

 

[kinyonga]

Sorry you lost the male but it looked pretty bad in the photos unfortunately.
I hope the females do well.

 

[fissidens]

I just wanted to stop by and give an update on the females.

1. They are still in their temporary 12"x12"x24"h which are currently placed about 5ft off the ground(bottom of enclosure). Because they are so small I feel this an acceptable size enclosure in the short term, but I would like to get them bumped up to a larger enclosure once they have some time to adjust. Right now I'm planning to build two 18"w x 18"d x 28"h enclosures as their permanent enclosures. These will be screened on at least the top and front as well as a screened vent on the bottom.

2. Temperature and humidity are still an issue, but because I have corrected my targets I am at least closer to what they need. Currently, I am using an open window at the opposite side of the room to control temp, which is not ideal but hopefully is better than roasting them in the high 78-83F ambient temp(on sunny days). Because I am working from home right now I am able to regularly monitor their temp and humidity and adjust throughout the day, but I will need a more reliable solution once I go back to the office. I am now able to maintain the following temps and humidity:

• Day
  • Temperature
    • Top of the enclosure(directly below bulb): 78-80F
      • I'm figuring out a solution to only giving them those warm basking temps for a short period on the morning.
    • Bottom of the enclosure: 70-73F
  • Humidity
    • 35-45%
• Night
  • Temperature
    • 62-70F
      • I close the door to the room and leave the window just barely cracked, it's really difficult and inconsistent to control temp this way and requires that I check the forecast each night to determine how safe it is to crack the window. With the window closed at night the temps are closer to 68-72F.
  • Humidity
    • 50-60%
      • I have ordered a fogger but it won't arrive for another week

3. I have stopped handling completely. I attempt to tong and/or hand feed in the morning in addition to providing a few dubias in a plastic tray. When hand/tong feeding I give them a short period of time to show interest and stop if they don't show interest or if they show defensive behavior.