Lower protein feeder options
- Thread starter Beman
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jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
Curious why? Your question is kind of like asking which kind of meat is lowest in protein 
. Some might have more fat in place of the protein. Hornworms just have excess moisture, but proteins and fats still make up their being, think of them being much smaller than they look. So if youre trying to cut down on calories, your best bet would be to just feed less rather than feed a certain food. Like with people, the answer isn't eating one food over another, it's about eating less calories, which is very deceptive. A big spoonful of peanut butter has the same or more calories than an entire chicken breast.
. Some might have more fat in place of the protein. Hornworms just have excess moisture, but proteins and fats still make up their being, think of them being much smaller than they look. So if youre trying to cut down on calories, your best bet would be to just feed less rather than feed a certain food. Like with people, the answer isn't eating one food over another, it's about eating less calories, which is very deceptive. A big spoonful of peanut butter has the same or more calories than an entire chicken breast.
So I am actually trying to cut down the protein level in the feeder specifically. I believe Beman is in the beginning of renal failure. Showing signs of gout and edema. I literally have no Vets available to do a blood draw without driving 5-6 hours down south. Due to my heart issues this type of drive is not possible. So with liver/kidney issues the protein of the feeder is what is broken down eventually into uric acid... not being properly broken down and excreted it then causes the issues of gout/edema.Curious why? Your question is kind of like asking which kind of meat is lowest in protein
Basically my thinking is if I can cut the protein level down then the uric acid issues would reduce. Maybe not much but maybe enough? Or I am just spinning my wheels trying desperately to fix something that is not fixable.
nightanole
Chameleon Enthusiast
Ill add a different view...
"animals" can not create or metabolize uric acid. So any "excess" is unfortunately stored crystalized in the joints etc. This is what gout is.
Insects on the other hand store excess protein as uric acid. Just like animals store excess fat as fat tissue.
So really you do not want a low protein feeder, you want a feeder that is fed low protein.
As far as calories to protein ratio, Silkworms and hornworms are pretty bad. They are basically a bag of water with a protein shell.
"animals" can not create or metabolize uric acid. So any "excess" is unfortunately stored crystalized in the joints etc. This is what gout is.
Insects on the other hand store excess protein as uric acid. Just like animals store excess fat as fat tissue.
So really you do not want a low protein feeder, you want a feeder that is fed low protein.
As far as calories to protein ratio, Silkworms and hornworms are pretty bad. They are basically a bag of water with a protein shell.
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
Do all insects store uric acid or just roaches @nightanole . I can't say I know other than I know roaches do that.
Becca, I'm sorry that's happening! let me get back to you with some more input when I have a few minutes! Rushing to get my kids ready for grandparents ATM
Becca, I'm sorry that's happening! let me get back to you with some more input when I have a few minutes! Rushing to get my kids ready for grandparents ATM
Ok so this is where I am spinning. In an effort to figure out what was causing the edema a few weeks ago I removed all excess bee pollen, switch from my gutload to bug burger in case my ratio was messed up, and switched supplements for him in case it was bee pollen. The edema was almost totally gone a few days ago. Yesterday he started showing signs of gout in his feet. Swollen and moving more slowly. Grip is very reduced from what it once was. feeding a variety of crickets, bsfl, dubia, hornworms. 2 feeders 3 days a week.
So honestly I am frustrated and not sure what to do to help him. He is drinking more then he ever has. I added a dripper to the enclosure when all this started weeks ago. Urates are white but with the gout showing up he is storing them as the crystals in the joints. So what do I do now? What feeders do I feed in an effort to help him and so he is able to eat. He is acting like he is hungry all the time since all this started.
Thanks James I am pretty much a basket case right now trying to scramble to figure out anything that will help.
nightanole
Chameleon Enthusiast
Im not an expert, just and enthusiast. But i believe this is the case for all insects, some might convert protein to uric acid at different rates. Its like my feeder humans. Yes humans can convert carbs to fat via lipogenesis, but they can only make 5-10 grams of fat per day.
But i know for a fact, all roaches, convert extra protein to uric acid at a very high rate, to be used later when protein becomes scarce.
Its possible very odd feeders like BSF larva and maggots do not, same with blue bottle flies. Simply because they have flicker lives.
nightanole
Chameleon Enthusiast
Personally, i would stop gut loading and supplementing. And by that switch feeders to an all veggie(people salad stuff, spring mix, squash, cucumbers, etc)+alfalfa diet, no bug burger or cricket crack or anything else with added vitamins/minerals. Supplement with just calcium powder. You are running outdoor or high UVB, so you should be fine for 6-8 weeks easy without any D3.
Im sorry to say, but most chams die from over supplementing, not under.
I have him on the Repashy supercal no D3 and that is all he has been getting. I will look at making a change back to fresh gutload as well today. Thank you.
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
Hey I'll PM you, but with gout and kidney issues, gutloading could be a problem. We've talked before about oxalates. They can cause gout-like symptoms in people and I believe kidney problems too. Not to freak you out, but pothos are loaded with them, so maybe that's something to consider as well. The tricky thing with veggies is a lot of them have defense mechanisms that can bother people/animals in certain amounts. I'll send you some ideas for a more simplistic approach, gunna think about it for a few minutes. And btw nothing I'm saying is as a fact that I know for certain, just educated guesses
Don't know if this will apply to chameleons...but in humans oxalates bind to calcium during digestion in the stomach and intestines and leave the body in the stool. If they are not bound they leave through the kidneys and can cause kidney stones.
In humans high calcium diet, I think, fixes this because it gives the oxalates something to bind too so it won't go out through the kidneys but rather in the poop....so I wonder if giving the insects a high calcium diet helps? This is just my thoughts on it...I have no proof at the moment....and I don't know how much calcium is enough without being too much. Don't forget ...I'm not a vet and this is just food for thought.
In humans high calcium diet, I think, fixes this because it gives the oxalates something to bind too so it won't go out through the kidneys but rather in the poop....so I wonder if giving the insects a high calcium diet helps? This is just my thoughts on it...I have no proof at the moment....and I don't know how much calcium is enough without being too much. Don't forget ...I'm not a vet and this is just food for thought.
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I'm so sorry to hear this. I dealt with renal failure with my chameleon (without gout), and it was not a fun experience
Can you remind me how old Beman is?IME, the vet confirmed renal failure with bloodwork and x-ray. The x-ray confirmed that there were no signs of gout, but his bloodwork showed extremely high uric acid levels. His other symptoms included: constipation, increased weakness (especially in the back legs), decrease in overall activity, decreased appetite and he stopped drinking as much. She prescribed allopurinol for him, which is a drug that reduces uric acid levels. However, this doesn't necessarily address the root cause for impaired renal function in the first place.
The vet told me that the most common causes of this are dehydration & supplementation issues. My boy also never showed any signs of dehydration the entire time I had him & his urates were always white/normal.
Does anyone on here know if chameleons are also susceptible to pseudogout/ calcium crystallization? Would this be reversible, or does it have the same/similar prognosis as UA gout?
IMO this might be worth a call to your vet if you haven't done so already if you're unable to travel; they might be able to talk to you over the phone about what is going on. There would be a limit to their assessment without running diagnostic tests, but it might be better than nothing.
MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
I’m so sorry Becca. Here’s just a few things that popped up when I searched for pseudogout with some info about gout as well. I don’t know if it will help.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/chandlers-leg-bump.164116/#post-1417926
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/diagnosed-with-gout.157510/#post-1349542
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/warning-necropsy-photos-gout-pseudogout.17746/
Is it possible that suppliers of your roaches are using something like dog food to increase their breeding? A couple of those links mention benefits of feeding silkworms to help gout/pseudogout. One thing that did pop out at me is “In reptiles, uric acid is cleared from the blood through the kidneys tubules, dehydration does not impair tubule excretion, but lower ambient temperatures does decrease renal tubule function.” As we’ve been lowering our basking temps, could that have had any effect? And perhaps a somewhat recent thread which claimed we are over-hydrating our chams is wrong. I recall you were taking the advice given and working on achieving the balance which was claimed to be best for our chams.
Here’s just a few things that popped up when I searched for pseudogout with some info about gout as well. I don’t know if it will help.https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/chandlers-leg-bump.164116/#post-1417926
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/diagnosed-with-gout.157510/#post-1349542
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/warning-necropsy-photos-gout-pseudogout.17746/
Is it possible that suppliers of your roaches are using something like dog food to increase their breeding? A couple of those links mention benefits of feeding silkworms to help gout/pseudogout. One thing that did pop out at me is “In reptiles, uric acid is cleared from the blood through the kidneys tubules, dehydration does not impair tubule excretion, but lower ambient temperatures does decrease renal tubule function.” As we’ve been lowering our basking temps, could that have had any effect? And perhaps a somewhat recent thread which claimed we are over-hydrating our chams is wrong. I recall you were taking the advice given and working on achieving the balance which was claimed to be best for our chams.
And this was why I went back to bug burger... So just a little google search I did shows this for dandelion greens:
Dandelion greens can be eaten cooked or raw and serve as an excellent source of vitamins A, C and K. They also contain vitamin E, folate and small amounts of other B vitamins (1). What's more, dandelion greens provide a substantial amount of several minerals, including iron, calcium, magnesium and potassium. One cup of chopped, raw dandelion greens (about 55g) has 25 calories, 1.5g protein, 0.4g of fat, 5.1g of carbohydrates, 1.9g fiber, and 0.4g sugar.
So that would be one vegi only.
Then this is bug burger:
INGREDIENTS: Stabilized Rice Bran, Corn Meal, Brewer’s Dried Yeast, Alfalfa Leaf Meal, Ground Flaxseed, Cane Molasses, Calcium Carbonate, Dried Seaweed Meal, Lecithin, Locust Bean Gum, Dried Kelp, Dried Watermelon, Rose Hips, Cinnamon, Hibiscus Flower, Marigold Flower, Paprika, Turmeric, Citric Acid, Potassium Citrate, Salt, Calcium Propionate and Potassium Sorbate (as preservatives), Magnesium Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Methionine Hydroxy Analogue Chelate, Manganese Methionine Hydroxy Analogue Chelate, Copper Methionine Hydroxy Analogue Chelate. Vitamins: (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium L-Ascorbyl-2-Monophosphate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Beta Carotene, Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex).
Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein min. 13%, Crude Fat min. 4%, Crude Fiber max. 10%, Moisture max. 8%, Ash max. 18%, Calcium min. 4%.
Thank you. Beman is now two and a half years old. He had blood work a few months ago and everything was normal. He is able to use all limbs but he is not fully gripping branches and when I hold him he used to have a really intense grip and its weaker now. He is drinking a ton, fecals and urates are normal, he is active still but not as fast in his movements. And he seems to be hungry all the time.I'm so sorry to hear this. I dealt with renal failure with my chameleon (without gout), and it was not a fun experience
IME, the vet confirmed renal failure with bloodwork and x-ray. The x-ray confirmed that there were no signs of gout, but his bloodwork showed extremely high uric acid levels. His other symptoms included: constipation, increased weakness (especially in the back legs), decrease in overall activity, decreased appetite and he stopped drinking as much. She prescribed allopurinol for him, which is a drug that reduces uric acid levels. However, this doesn't necessarily address the root cause for impaired renal function in the first place.
The vet told me that the most common causes of this are dehydration & supplementation issues. My boy also never showed any signs of dehydration the entire time I had him & his urates were always white/normal.
Does anyone on here know if chameleons are also susceptible to pseudogout/ calcium crystallization? Would this be reversible, or does it have the same/similar prognosis as UA gout?
IMO this might be worth a call to your vet if you haven't done so already if you're unable to travel; they might be able to talk to you over the phone about what is going on. There would be a limit to their assessment without running diagnostic tests, but it might be better than nothing.
Yeah I have read those threads and many more the last few weeks. With the edema I was kinda diving into all angles. I would hate to think that the roach supplier would do that. They are a real reptile food supplier that I order from.I’m so sorry Becca.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/chandlers-leg-bump.164116/#post-1417926
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/diagnosed-with-gout.157510/#post-1349542
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/warning-necropsy-photos-gout-pseudogout.17746/
Is it possible that suppliers of your roaches are using something like dog food to increase their breeding? A couple of those links mention benefits of feeding silkworms to help gout/pseudogout. One thing that did pop out at me is “In reptiles, uric acid is cleared from the blood through the kidneys tubules, dehydration does not impair tubule excretion, but lower ambient temperatures does decrease renal tubule function.” As we’ve been lowering our basking temps, could that have had any effect? And perhaps a somewhat recent thread which claimed we are over-hydrating our chams is wrong. I recall you were taking the advice given and working on achieving the balance which was claimed to be best for our chams.
Yeah I totally get what your saying. So temps for him at basking are 82 but he rarely ever goes to the basking area. He loves being under the T5 lights and that area ranges depending on time of day from 79-83ish. Now I reduced his temps at the beginning of the year I think. But even then my basking temp was set for 84 no hotter.
And then we have the overhydration thread from hell. So I have thought a lot about that component. So when I was fogging I was getting up to 84% on average. Since I have stopped a few months ago I have been misting at 5:30pm and 6:30pm 3-4 minutes for each. This kicks and holds my night time humidity right at 79-81% all night until lights kick back on in the morning. Only change with urates has been from extremely liquid to more form. But not dry in any way and never any yellow.
Yeah I am trying to dig up nutritional value on that angle as well lol.
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