MBD- does it hurt them?

[Jodo]

Hello,
I have a veiled chameleon called Drutt who is about 9 months old and i am quite certain that she has MBD. Although her movement it a little shakey when she is moving around, her general behaviour has not changed and she is eating/ drinking/ basking as normal. I usually have her out of the enclosure for a little while most days, as she is still wandering around when she is out, but, like in the enclosure, she is a little shakey.

I had not heard of MBD until i did some research on chameleon health a few days ago. Having seeing photographs of chameleons with MBD i noticed that her legs looked bowed and then someone commented on a photo of her that she looks like she has MBD.

I feed the crickets, hoppers and mealworms she has with 'Bug Gel' that i bought from the pet shop and have calcium and multivitamins that i dusk on the food, although i do not put them on everytime as i heard that too much calcuim would do her harm. I have a liquid calcium which i put into the water which i mist the tank up with. There is a UVA/UVB light in the tank.

Reading posts on here have been very helpful and informative. I am going to be taking her to the vets next week (as it is new year it is difficult to make an appointment as the vets have holiday opening hours.) I am feeling more confident from reading posts that there is a possibility that the vet may be able to give her treatment and that MBD is common and not something that has happened to her because i have not looked after her properly. However, i cannot seem to find anything on the forums or online that says whether or not MBD causes pain to the chameleon? I know that left untreated the chameleon will die and if correct nutrition is not provided then it leads to the deterioration of an animal, but i would like to know if anyone has any information on the effects it has to the animals general well being. I really would be very unhappy with the idea of her being in pain.

 

[camimom]

Wouldnt you be in pain and uncomfortable if your legs and arms were broken? and you couldnt eat right or use your tongue properly?

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."I feed the crickets, hoppers and mealworms she has with 'Bug Gel' that i bought from the pet shop and have calcium and multivitamins that i dusk on the food, although i do not put them on everytime as i heard that too much calcuim would do her harm. I have a liquid calcium which i put into the water which i mist the tank up with. There is a UVA/UVB light in the tank"...your gutloading and supplementing need to be improved/changed. See the information below to find out more about that. I don't like the idea of putting calcium in the water because then it ends up in their eyes, etc. What brand and type of UVB light are you using? Does the light from it pass through glass or plastic?

MBD not only affects the bones making them weak and resulting in breaks and deformities, it affects organs and muscles and other systems in the chameleon....so yes, it not only physically hurts them but affects their health too. Its important to correct the imbalance that has caused it and also improve/correct your husbandry to prevent it from happening again.

If the chameleon does have MBD then a vet can give it injections of calcium until the blood calcium levels are high enough that the chameleon can be given a shot of calcitonin to help it draw the calcium back into its bones rapidly. This is the quickest way to correct it.


Here's some information I hope will help you ....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

A wide variety of insects that have been well fed and gutloaded should be fed to it.

Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.
Please note that various supplements have various amounts of D3 and vitamin A and so some can be given more often than others. The idea still is not to overdo the fat soluble vitamins like D3 and prEformed vitamin A.

Here are some good sites for you to read too...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.

 

[millerman6401]

it probably does hurt them while they have it untreated but if caught soon enough and kept under controll i belive they do just fine. my 6mo ld ambilobe had it when he was 4 months old and aside from a crooked leg due to a compound fracture he is doing just fine. just takes him a little longer than usual to get somewhere. i also put ALOT more sturdy vines and plants in his cage so no matter where he is or wants to go he doesnt have to strain himself that much.

 

[Olimpia]

...and that MBD is common and not something that has happened to her because i have not looked after her properly...

I hate to sound like I'm being cruel, but it is common BECAUSE people don't look after their reptiles properly, not in spite of good care. It's not like cancer, where even really healthy pets get it occasionally, MBD is caused by deficiency. If you have nutritious gutloading, correct and sufficient supplements, and a good UVB bulb, something like MBD or other vitamin/mineral deficiencies don't happen.

That being said, you can still get your cham to a good place, although she will never look "normal" again. The bowing will remain to a large degree, but you can re-solidify her bones and get her system functioning at proper capacity by getting everything back in order.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

MBD not only affects the bones making them weak and resulting in breaks and deformities, it affects organs and muscles and other systems in the chameleon....so yes, it not only physically hurts them but affects their health too. Its important to correct the imbalance that has caused it and also improve/correct your husbandry to prevent it from happening again.

This is exactly right. Even without actual broken bones, calcium is needed in many placed in the body and can have wide sweeping effects, which probably in fact is uncomfortable or even painful.

I feed the crickets, hoppers and mealworms she has with 'Bug Gel' that i bought from the pet shop and have calcium and multivitamins that i dusk on the food, although i do not put them on everytime as i heard that too much calcuim would do her harm. I have a liquid calcium which i put into the water which i mist the tank up with.

Please read up on proper gutloading. Here is a quick guide to good gutloading to maximize the calcium intake.

"Gutloading is the process of working through the food chain to feed the prey animals the nutrition that your insectivore pet needs to replicate what they would eat in nature. Crickets are basically just water and chitin (not very nutritious or digestible) and the pet stores only feed them cardboard, or potato at most, so feeding crickets directly after you get them from the pet store or vendor is not providing much in the way of nutrition to your pet. Supplementing with a calcium and/or multivitamin powder is important, but not sufficient alone for proper nutrition in any species. Gut loading can't be done in all feeders but is very easy in crickets and super worms - two common feeder bugs.

How do you chose what to use? Gutloading ingredients should be chosen that are higher in calcium than phosphorus. High phosphorus levels in the food impedes calcium absorption. Inadequate dietary calcium leads to metabolic bone disease. Commercially available gutloads (such as Fluker Farms Cricket Food) are not balanced or sufficient for good nutrition in any species. Ideally there should be a wet and dry component to your gut load:

Good Wet Gutloading Ingredients: dandelion leaves, collard greens, mustard greens, turnip greens, escarole lettuce, butternut squash, carrots, mango, alfalfa sprouts, oranges, blueberries, raspberries, sweet potato, strawberries, hibiscus leaves and flowers, papaya

Good Dry Gutload Ingredients: bee pollen, alfalfa powder, kelp powder, brewer’s yeast, wheat germ, raw uncooked sunflower seeds, raw uncooked pumpkin seeds, hemp seeds, small amounts of whole grain cereals, spirulina algae, tortoise pellets

Foods to AVOID: Broccoli, spinach, beets, and parsley, have large amounts of oxalic acids which bind calcium absorption. Lettuces and cabbage do not have any significant nutritional value. Also, avoid things like dog food, cat food, and fish flakes which are high in animal proteins which can cause kidney damage. Feeding such things like pinky-mice, fuzzies, and feeder anoles that are extremely high in fat and protein content is harmful to your chameleon's health, bones and organs that can lead to serious illnesses like gout, edema, organ failure and fatality.


This site has nutritional info on many commonly available fruits and veggies to help guide you in choosing good gut loading ingredients: http://www.greenigsociety.org/foodchart.htm
Sandrachameleon has many more blog entries on gut loading and nutrition."

MBD is common and not something that has happened to her because i have not looked after her properly.

Unfortunately you are correct in that it is common, but the reason that it is common is because proper care of these animals is not common knowledge and people commonly do not take care of them properly. Just the fact that it is common does not mean that it is correct or dismissable. While you may have been doing your best to take care of your little one unfortunately MBD results purely from a deficiency of either calcium or UVB as Olimpia stated. It was obviously not intentional, but happened nonetheless and you need to make some changes to prevent it from progressing. You have UVB but you are not meeting his calcium needs. A chameleon should never be calcium restricted. They are in constant demand of calcium, especially during the first year when they are growing. Calcium in the water is not really beneficial because they are not going to get it in any significant quantity even if they drink it directly.

Hopefully you can get her back on track with some husbandry changes and the vet may be able to kick start her recovery with some calcium injections. She needs every single bug dusted with calcium (no D3 or phosphorus) and a liquid calcium supplement like calcium glubionate (given orally) will help restore the calcium that is missing.

 

[Draco1702]

Hi Jodo, MBD is the outcome of metabolic deficiencies which occur also in humans and bowed long bones are just one of its manifestation. You can get an idea of what your chameleon may be feeling by looking up rickets and osteomalacia.

 

[Jodo]

Thank you for your responses.

I can see from what i have read that while i have been dusking her food, i have not got the balance right, so i thank you for the information and i will discuss it with the vet when i take her next week.

Camimom- i guess you are right! That would be painful.

Kinyonga- I am not entirly sure which UVB brand it is. I bought the Exo Terra products from the pet shop and the light i bought was the one recommended- i think it is a Exo Terra product too. The light passes through a mesh about 2 inches above her tank; it does not pass through plastic or glass. I do not use phos.-free calcium powder, i shall investigate what is avaliable in the pet shop tomorrow. Thank you for the links and for sharing with me.

Millerman6401- I am happy for you that your chameleon is doing well! I hope that my chameleon has a happy out come like yours!

Olimpia- Do not worry about sounding cruel- i have come on the forum for realistic feedback and help, so if i have been doing it wrong then i need to be told. Having read people's recommendations, i can see that, while i am giving her suppliments, i am not giving them correctly to her. I hope that i can get her stronger and functioning properly again when i take her to the vet, but i don't think she was ever 'normal' - she has always been a bit of a looney!

Ferretinmyshoes- your pic is amazing and has made me smile! I appriciate what you have said about it not being right because it is common and i agree. your suggestions on what is good for gutloading is fab! I didn't realise that i could use such a range of things.

Draco1702- I just had a quick look and it says about the different areas of pain. It's a good comparison. Thank you.


Your responses have been a real eye opener for me; Thank you very much for your suggestions and tips. I will take what you have all said into account and hopefully i will be able to do something that can help her. Right now she is asleep on her branch!

 

[Draco1702]

Hi Jodo, you have the right attitude to address the issue correctly! I hope your chameleon will get better soon!

 

[camimom]

Can yo post a pic of her?
Some people use liquid calcium to help get mbd chams back on track. might want to look into that.
Also, I use repashy all in one calcium plus, which has everything the chams need to stay healthy.
I would not recommend it right now, as you need to get your cham back on track, and I would use a regular plain calcium without d3 until shes stable, but after that, you can use repashy for all feedings.

Can you take her outside? natural sunshine does wonders for mbd chams.

 

[Jodo]

Hello,
With it being New Year and bank holidays, today was the first day i was able to get to a vet. She fell in her enclosure and broke her front leg yesterday evening. She stopped eating and was only drinking if i was dripping it into her mouth. As she was unable to climb she satrted to get cold, despite my efforts to keep her warm. Last night she made her way to the bottom of the tank under a plant and was very lethargic and cold.

When the vet checked her over he said that internally she wasn't very good; her heartbeat was weak and she was making funny 'popping' noises when she was breathing. He said that she was probably in a lot of pain because of the break in her leg and that the MBD was quite advanced, so the decision was made to put her to sleep.

I have throughly enjoyed having the chameleon and i do not think that she will be my last, but i am not going to get another one for a while. I feel it would be better if i were to do more research and talk to more people on how i can get the best care for one. Again, i would like to thank you for your helpfull suggestions and hopefully, if i get another chameleon in the future, i will be a little wiser their care.

Jodo x

 

[camimom]

im sorry you had to put your girl to sleep.
I am glad that you will do more research, and not let this one bad experience turn you off from the chameleon world. they truely are very exciting creatures to have, and when taken care of properly, can be very enjoyable for years to come.
if you ever have any questions regarding taking care of them, you can always post them on this forum.
no question is too silly or stupid, but if you ever feel this way, you are always welcome to pm any member you feel can answer your question.

Good luck in the future!

 

[Draco1702]

Really sorry to hear about your chameleon. When you will get a new one, you know you will be able to find help here!