Metabolic bone disease? Injury? Lower lip sagging

[Any2117]

So, I have a male panther chameleon, 5 months old and I’ve had him for a month. Yesterday I noticed his bottom lip sagging for some reason… he’s drinking, pooping and eating well, but the lip stays the same.., is it metabolic bone disease? I’ve only had him for a month. Supplemented with supervite twice and calcium without d3 every other day. Should I up his calcium? I feed him a mix of mealworms, small dubia roaches and crickets. I’ll attach pictures. Thank you so much!


Your Chameleon - panther chameleon, male, 5 months old. 1 in my care
Handling - not handled yet
Feeding - feeding dubia, crickets, mealworms, daily, no restriction, I keep his feeder full. Feeding all insects with cricket feeder commercial food and greens/carrots
Supplements - I’m using repashy supervite twice monthly and jbl microcalcium every other day
Watering - mister 4 times per day with extra mistings when I get home and fogger at night. No dripper. i’ve seen him drink
Fecal Description - brown with white urates, no parasite tests.
History - not really… i bought him from a breeder a month ago. He’s usually very active and hasn’t changed behavior.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - combo glass bottom (exo terra 90x45x60 and a screen on top, same dimensions.
Lighting - arcadia tube 24w forest t5 pro kit. Heat lamp 50 w, white led for plants
Temperature - temp range from 22C to 29C. Basking at 32C i use thermostats and a heat gun
Humidity - day humidity 40-50, night 90-100, measured with hygrometer on both sides of the cage. Real soil and real plants (pothos, schefflera, croton)
Placement - cage is on a table, highest point is at least 1.8m from the floor. Cage is in a reptile room but sides are black and he cant see other reptiles. There’s a dog in the house but small and he can’t get anywhere near the chameleon cage, the table is three times the height of the dog and the cage is on top. Dog is never unsupervised in the room
Location - Madrid, spain

Thank you all so much for all the help!

 

[Flick boy]

Hi and welcome to the forum, do you have a picture of your full enclosure including lights, do you also have a picture of your supplements contents as I'm not familiar with them

 

[Flick boy]

Hi 32c is to hot I'd cut that down to 29 c , how are you measuring temperature and humidity?

 

[Beman]

Hi there welcome to the forum. I am going to put feedback for your husbandry review in red bold. Along with any questions.

Is the mouth like that consistently? Can you see if there is any sign of mouth rot inside? Any discoloration?

Your Chameleon - panther chameleon, male, 5 months old. 1 in my care
Handling - not handled yet
Feeding - feeding dubia, crickets, mealworms, daily, no restriction, I keep his feeder full. Feeding all insects with cricket feeder commercial food and greens/carrots Approximately how many feeders a day is he getting right now?
Supplements - I’m using repashy supervite twice monthly and jbl microcalcium every other day Drop the repashy supervite. It is extremely high in Vitamin A and is not recommended for chameleons because of it. You can replace it with the repashy calcium plus LoD version. Only use it 2 times a month. If you can get it then get the Repashy NoD calcium. This is a plain calcium but it will not coat like powdered donuts. You do not want the feeders to have tons of supplement on them. You should just barely see it. I would not use the JBL as I have heard it adheres quite a bit to feeders. With the repashy NoD calcium you would use this at every feeding. Then the Repashy LoD multivitamin would be 2 times a month say the 1st and the 15th.
Watering - mister 4 times per day with extra mistings when I get home and fogger at night. No dripper. i’ve seen him drink
Fecal Description - brown with white urates, no parasite tests.
History - not really… i bought him from a breeder a month ago. He’s usually very active and hasn’t changed behavior.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - combo glass bottom (exo terra 90x45x60 and a screen on top, same dimensions. May I see a pic of the entire set up?
Lighting - arcadia tube 24w forest t5 pro kit. Heat lamp 50 w, white led for plants Which UVB strength are you using the 6% or the 12%? What is the total distance from bottom of fixture to the branches below it.
Temperature - temp range from 22C to 29C. Basking at 32C i use thermostats and a heat gun... Basking should be a range of 27-29 and no hotter. 22 ambient daytime is good. You want to shoot for 18 at night when you are running the fogger.
Humidity - day humidity 40-50, night 90-100, measured with hygrometer on both sides of the cage. Real soil and real plants (pothos, schefflera, croton) This is good for day and night. For night you just have to ensure the temp is low enough or you should not run the fogger. High risk of a respiratory infection if it is hot.
Placement - cage is on a table, highest point is at least 1.8m from the floor. Cage is in a reptile room but sides are black and he cant see other reptiles. There’s a dog in the house but small and he can’t get anywhere near the chameleon cage, the table is three times the height of the dog and the cage is on top. Dog is never unsupervised in the room
Location - Madrid, spain

Thank you all so much for all the help!

 

[Any2117]

Hello and again, thank you all so much! I have other reptiles, but chams are truly nerve wrecking!

I’ll answer all questions and attach pictures:

Flickboy: will add all pictures. Thank you. I turned off the basking light and ordered new fans for the terrarium to take out hot air. I have no air conditioning in the house, unless I puchase one of those mobile units. Will look into it.

Beman:
-I don see any decoloration although maybe a tiny red spot on the tongue? I grabbed him and tried to take more pictures. He’s fast moving and seems normal, except for the weird li. I’ll attach them

-Hes getting around 10 feeders per day, but I always leave some avaible in a container inside his cage, should I take them out?

-Thank you, will change both right away. Jbl indeed coats everything like a powder donut.

-I’m using forest 6%, and it’s 10cms away from the hight branch. It’s resting on the screen

-Will add the fans,daylight temps need to be lower… they’re around 26-27 nightime temp is around 20C, should I leave the fans running at night too? I turn them off at night

-Should I turn of the fogger? It’s around 20 at night.

Will add all the pictures, thank you so so so much!

There’s a CHE inside, It’s off. It was meant for winter.

I have the setup, lights (basking was already off) a poop he just did and a close up of the mouth. It seem like the lower lip is swollen?

 

[Beman]

@JacksJill @kinyonga Can you take a look through this thread please.... I have never seen this happen in my almost 5 years. They have supplements and UVB. Although the UVB is too close should be 8-9 inches away from the branch instead of 4. Even then I have not seen over exposure cause this...

 

[JacksJill]

I'm concerned with his over all body condition his casque and spine are very thin. It sounds like he has had the opportunity to eat so something else is going on. His legs look thin and clean without obvious advanced MBD. Too much vitamin A could block Vitamin D3 but I doubt it would happen in 2 doses. Usually too much D3 blocks A not the other way around.
Other than a vet exam and radiographs, x-rays, I don't have any good suggestions.

 

[Any2117]

I’ll book an appointment at the vet’s tomorrow and raise the uvb more. Is there anything else I can do? I’m horribly concerned now. I have pictures of the day I got him, on June 6th. I’ll upload them. His lip was normal then. They’re mostly close ups. He is pooping and eating regularly and his poop looks fine to me but I’m not sure of anything…, could he have some kind of parasite? Thank you all so much.

 

[Flick boy]

Hi

I’ll book an appointment at the vet’s tomorrow and raise the uvb more. Is there anything else I can do? I’m horribly concerned now. I have pictures of the day I got him, on June 6th. I’ll upload them. His lip was normal then. They’re mostly close ups. He is pooping and eating regularly and his poop looks fine to me but I’m not sure of anything…, could he have some kind of parasite? Thank you all so much.

Hi what lights are in the exoterra canopy? This could be replaced with a basking dome which would take up less space as you have a linear t5ho, and the canopy isn't needed and will be blocking air flow ( in the future you will want to think about upgrading to a 2x2x4 like a repti breeze which is the minimum size recommended but also provides better air flow/ circulation than an exoterra . As you have seen and acknowledged supplements need changing and t5ho needs raised, I did not recommend turning off the basking light just lower the temperature, how are you measuring temps and humidity , keep us up to date with what the vet says , it would be a good idea to get blood test and a full fecal and x-ray if possible

 

[Flick boy]

Hi when you say feeding cricket commercial food ,what exactly are you feeding your insects? Do you have a picture of what you're using , sorry for all the questions just the more information the better

 

[Any2117]

Hello, thank you all for the help! Just came back from the vet. Fecal is fine, he’s a bit low on weight but the vet wasn’t concerned. He DOES have an abscess on his lip, hence the shape. There’s a small wound that got infected. He’s still active, a decent weight, eating and shooting his tongue so it seems we caught it early! He’s on inyected antibiotics for the next 10 days and then a check up. I’ve changed all his supplements too. I’ll keep you all updated! Thanks you all so much!

 

[kinyonga]

Glad you got him to a vet! Hope his abcess heals quickly!
Keep an eye on it because the main bacteria they seem to get in mouth infections is pseudomonas and it’s hard to get rid of.
What is the antibiotic?

 

[Any2117]

Glad you got him to a vet! Hope his abcess heals quickly!
Keep an eye on it because the main bacteria they seem to get in mouth infections is pseudomonas and it’s hard to get rid of.
What is the antibiotic?

So do I, the vet was quite sure it’s just superficial and he should do fine… i DO have to administer the antibiotics myself so that will be fun… I hope there are no pseudomonas… seems he doesn’t hace any osteomyelitis either and the tongue is healthy.
He’s getting daily ceftazidime, so pseudomonas should be covered aswell

 

[Any2117]

Hello! Just wanted to give you all a quick update. Dali (my cham) is doing SO MUCH better. He still has a tiny sag on his lip but I think it’ll be normal soon. His appetite skyrocketed too. He has an appointment on friday for a checkup but I’m sure he has gained a lot of weight! Thank you all for all your help! Seems the infection was caught early and didn’t do any lasting damage! He DOES hate me now since I’m the monster that catches him and sticks a needle in him daily… but it can’t be helped! In case someone else has this problem, it happens really quickly and almost with no warning, but they bounce back with the right treatment!
Again thank you all SO much!

 

[kinyonga]

You obviously had a good vet!! So glad he’s doing well!

There’s one more thing I just wanted to mention…I just re-read your posts…funny I didn’t catch it the first time around…you said…”Will add the fans,daylight temps need to be lower… they’re around 26-27”…what is your room temperature when it’s 26-27 in the cage?

 

[Any2117]

You obviously had a good vet!! So glad he’s doing well!

There’s one more thing I just wanted to mention…I just re-read your posts…funny I didn’t catch it the first time around…you said…”Will add the fans,daylight temps need to be lower… they’re around 26-27”…what is your room temperature when it’s 26-27 in the cage?

Heh.. it’s July in Madrid… houses rarely have air conditioning, usually only a room or two… so… outside it’s around 39-40 right now, inside around 33-34 I got a portable unit for the room but even with that, the lowest I can get during the day is 26-27. It’s… hot. Very hot

 

[kinyonga]

Ok…just so you know adding fans shouldn’t cool the cage any cooler than the room temperature because all they do is blow/move the air around. Unlike people, Chameleons don’t sweat, so it doesn’t cool them at all to blow air around unless you are actually moving in cooler air and warmer air out. The most it does is move the air so it becomes less stagnant I think.

 

[Sonny13]

It’s terrible in the south of Europe right now. A few week want be problem, but I would run the heat light for max 2-3 hours in morning or completely not till temps in the living room are dropping. If possible, try to get a nighttime drop for some degrees, this will be beneficial for his general health and for his recovery now. Temperature drops gives them a deeper sleep and therefore better recuperation. Personally, I would remove the light from the inside of the enclosure to the top. This will give them less stress, because naturally, heat or sun comes from above not from the side.

The rest you’re in good hands with the rest. And for those that haven’t said it so far, you’ve one handsome fella right there

 

[Flick boy]

Hi never had one ,don't know if they are good , but zoomed sell a swamp cooler ( as mentioned I know nothing about them but just thought I'd share

 

[Sonny13]

Hi never had one ,don't know if they are good , but zoomed sell a swamp cooler ( as mentioned I know nothing about them but just thought I'd share

They work what I’ve heard, but not is soo many degrees as they advertise. They’ll drop some degrees, especially in such setup as the OP has. Downside is that you constantly need to refill it with water.