My chameleon will die without help

[Ladythrasher89]

Ok so I have tried a few times in the past to get answers about the best way to get a female chameleon to lay eggs. I have taken her to the vet twice now and the vet said she has eggs she can see (about 40) last time she never laid any eggs just stopped displays and started eating again. The vet thought maybe she just wasn't ready to lay because she never did and never became egg bound. This time, however, she is noticeably gravid and spends a lot of time low in the cage. I had a large cricket keeper full of cocohusk dirt substrate she has been sitting on the edge often in the mornings. So today, fearing the container I had in there is too small, I bumped her up to a larger 3 gallon fish tank sized plastic cricket keeper, is 9.7" h x 14.5" L x 9.7" w. It is filled with a 50/50 mix of clean playsand and organic top soil. I have been covering her cage with a blanket around the front sides that face out. What else can I do?! She is approximately a year old, and this is her first clutch. Please help.

 

[Theveiled]

I have heard starter holes help

 

[jannb]

Welcome to the forums. Do you have any pictures if your girl? The soil does not look moist enough to hold a tunnel. What kind of soil are you using? Here's a video by one of our senior member about making a laying bin. Also my blog about egg laying. If you get her to the vet in time a vet can give oxytocin to induce egg laying before she becomes egg bound. Several injections of oxytocin over several days might be needed. If she still doesn’t lay the eggs surgery is the only other alternative. Surgery is very risky but at this point it’s the only choice. If your female is healthy and your husbandry is right she shouldn't become egg-bound unless she has a reproductive system deformity, deformed eggs, etc.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/laying-bin-set-up-educational-video.77225/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/entry/egg-laying-and-the-laying-bin.345/

 

[Ladythrasher89]

The soil is a 50/50 blend of playsand and organic top soil. It is moist enough to hold shape when rolled into a ball. I also started a small tunnel for her that holds up just fine. Any wetter I think it would be mud. What should I be looking for as signs and symptoms she may be in distress or may be egg bound?
Here she is the other day. She becomes very distressed if I mess with her cage at all, she hisses and flicks her tail. She hasn't eaten much in the last few days just like 4 crickets and a superworm.

 

[Andreab102]

You could try getting a gallon bucket and putting the mixture in there and then placing her in there and covering it.

 

[jannb]

Did you check this link? It shows the large trash can that I have used to put them in with no way out.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/entry/egg-laying-and-the-laying-bin.345/

Has the vet done an X-ray lately? What shape were the eggs? If round she may have some time left before she's ready to lay. If the eggs are oblong then she's ready to lay.

 

[Ladythrasher89]

When should I put her in/take her out?

 

[jannb]

My girls normally started to dig in the late afternoon and some would sleep in the bin all night and finish digging and lay the next morning. Put her in around 3:00 in the afternoon. Give her total privacy and if she's not doing anything by bed time, 8:00 take her out and try again the next day at 3.

 

[Ladythrasher89]

Thanks! When should I start to get worried about her being egg bound?

 

[Qwerty]

it's too small it has to be 18x18x 12tall avoid playsand mine doesn't like it start immediately after i change playsand with topsoil.

 

[jannb]

Thanks! When should I start to get worried about her being egg bound?

When she stops eating for more than a few days. If she looks weak and kind of just laying on the branch instead of holding her head up. Also closing the eyes during the day is a sign there's a problem. If you wait to long to take her to the vet after she starts getting weak she'll have a much slimmer chance at surviving surgery. Also once that past a certain point of needing to lay it's to late to try the oxytocin. The very best of luck to you and her.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Thanks! When should I start to get worried about her being egg bound?

It isn't always obvious when an animal crosses the line between everything progressing normally to being in trouble. I know how stressful it is and feel for you.

Furnish your laying bin with things like a little plant and sticks. Often they like to dig around the base of a plant, among the roots. I will plant something small in my laying bins, often a fern that gives them a plant coming out of the ground, roots in the ground and some cover from the fronds. I also stick groups of branches/twigs in the ground. I'll dig a small starter hole at the base of the plant and the branches that are stuck deeply into the substrate. Make sure she has sufficient cover to feel safe at all levels of the cage, especially near the bottom. I will cover the front of the cage with a white cloth.

I have only used a bucket to transport them back and forth between the vets'. I set up a tall painters' bucket the same way I set up their laying bin--deep enough substrate, plants, sticks, starter holes and perches. The species I work with is a fairly shallow layer, so you might want to use something taller than a painters' bucket. I'm not a fan of planning to use a garbage can for egg laying since I imagine that moving her out of her cage into another cage (a garbage can) will stress her and exacerbate any laying problems she might be having but other breeders have used it with success.

Back to your original question: When should you be worried.

It's a judgment call and there is no black and white answer. Ideally, you want a chameleon to look all happy and content, maybe she doesn't eat much for a few days and then one day without any fanfare, she drops down to the bottom, lays her eggs and is up on her branch eating and drinking in a couple of hours. That's ideal and it doesn't always go like that. Often, they appear restless/distressed before laying, sometimes for days. They are up and down. Some will dig holes yet not lay over a period of days. Often those animals go on to lay without any problems once they get to the point of actually digging the hole and laying their eggs. (I don't know what veiled females look like when they are laying, but my species turns jet black and that blackness when laying is normal.) Sometimes a female that is up and down for a week deteriorates and needs intervention. It's a fine line between normal and a problem and isn't obvious. I am super stressed as my females approach egg laying so I understand your worry.

I check on them a couple of times a day without disturbing them--I just lift a tiny corner of the cloth and find out what they are doing. I use a white cloth that allows light to go through so when I lift the corner to look, I am not suddenly flooding the cage with a new light source. If I have a female that seems a little distressed as egg laying approaches, I will make a judgement call of when to take her to the vet for an xray and possibly other things like fluid, calcium and a shot of oxytocin. I look at her face--is she going downhill? If she is, she's at the vets. I have more experience than you of what distress looks like that turns out to be the female preparing for a normal egg laying and one where we give her some help.

There is a point where you might notice that her body/muscles seems to get lax. Everything softens as it prepares for delivery. You can see the muscles fall over her pelvis. You will see the egg outlines much more clearly. Her vent might be more relaxed. This is not to be confused with her becoming dehydrated or being in active labor. This is where your observation skills are really important, to be able to see she is not dehydrated because dehydration will also make her look like this. If she is laboring, you will see the egg outlines more obviously. If she is sitting up on her branch, happy and relaxed but you are starting to see her body become more slack, she's close. If she is looking like that but is restless, she might be in labor.

My gut feeling for a novice like yourself would be to take her to the vet sooner rather than later. If she is laboring and not producing eggs, the longer she is in that state, the more exhausted she becomes. She might need fluids and calcium. She might need oxytocin. In general, you don't give oxytocin to laboring animals since they might not be producing eggs because of a blockage but sometimes their contractions aren't strong enough. Xrays will help you and a vet decide how to proceed.

I would not do surgery on a chameleon because it has notoriously poor outcome and is very expensive. Often by the time you get to the point of deciding to do the surgery, the animal is in such poor shape they have almost no chance of surviving the surgery even in the hands of the best reptile surgeon. This kind of surgery is very difficult surgery and requires a particularly skilled surgeon. I would never just let an animal die from dystocia. She gets the best care, not matter what my ultimate decision is.

I know I didn't give you the answers you want but hope I gave you a better understanding of what to expect. Good luck.

 

[jannb]

Thanks! When should I start to get worried about her being egg bound?

How's she doing? She might lay just find. She looks good in the photos. If she does need surgery be sure to get a good experienced vet. I can probably help you find one if you tell me where you are located. A long time ago this surgery was not very successful but more and more vets are having success with it all the time now. Our vet here on the forums is one of the sucessful vets with this surgery. I've had three girls to have the surgery and 2 of the three are still with me. One is 4 years post surgery and the other a year and a half post surgery and both are doing very well. Please keep us posted.

 

[Ladythrasher89]

It isn't always obvious when an animal crosses the line between everything progressing normally to being in trouble. I know how stressful it is and feel for you.

Furnish your laying bin with things like a little plant and sticks. Often they like to dig around the base of a plant, among the roots. I will plant something small in my laying bins, often a fern that gives them a plant coming out of the ground, roots in the ground and some cover from the fronds. I also stick groups of branches/twigs in the ground. I'll dig a small starter hole at the base of the plant and the branches that are stuck deeply into the substrate. Make sure she has sufficient cover to feel safe at all levels of the cage, especially near the bottom. I will cover the front of the cage with a white cloth.

I have only used a bucket to transport them back and forth between the vets'. I set up a tall painters' bucket the same way I set up their laying bin--deep enough substrate, plants, sticks, starter holes and perches. The species I work with is a fairly shallow layer, so you might want to use something taller than a painters' bucket. I'm not a fan of planning to use a garbage can for egg laying since I imagine that moving her out of her cage into another cage (a garbage can) will stress her and exacerbate any laying problems she might be having but other breeders have used it with success.

Back to your original question: When should you be worried.

It's a judgment call and there is no black and white answer. Ideally, you want a chameleon to look all happy and content, maybe she doesn't eat much for a few days and then one day without any fanfare, she drops down to the bottom, lays her eggs and is up on her branch eating and drinking in a couple of hours. That's ideal and it doesn't always go like that. Often, they appear restless/distressed before laying, sometimes for days. They are up and down. Some will dig holes yet not lay over a period of days. Often those animals go on to lay without any problems once they get to the point of actually digging the hole and laying their eggs. (I don't know what veiled females look like when they are laying, but my species turns jet black and that blackness when laying is normal.) Sometimes a female that is up and down for a week deteriorates and needs intervention. It's a fine line between normal and a problem and isn't obvious. I am super stressed as my females approach egg laying so I understand your worry.

I check on them a couple of times a day without disturbing them--I just lift a tiny corner of the cloth and find out what they are doing. I use a white cloth that allows light to go through so when I lift the corner to look, I am not suddenly flooding the cage with a new light source. If I have a female that seems a little distressed as egg laying approaches, I will make a judgement call of when to take her to the vet for an xray and possibly other things like fluid, calcium and a shot of oxytocin. I look at her face--is she going downhill? If she is, she's at the vets. I have more experience than you of what distress looks like that turns out to be the female preparing for a normal egg laying and one where we give her some help.

There is a point where you might notice that her body/muscles seems to get lax. Everything softens as it prepares for delivery. You can see the muscles fall over her pelvis. You will see the egg outlines much more clearly. Her vent might be more relaxed. This is not to be confused with her becoming dehydrated or being in active labor. This is where your observation skills are really important, to be able to see she is not dehydrated because dehydration will also make her look like this. If she is laboring, you will see the egg outlines more obviously. If she is sitting up on her branch, happy and relaxed but you are starting to see her body become more slack, she's close. If she is looking like that but is restless, she might be in labor.

My gut feeling for a novice like yourself would be to take her to the vet sooner rather than later. If she is laboring and not producing eggs, the longer she is in that state, the more exhausted she becomes. She might need fluids and calcium. She might need oxytocin. In general, you don't give oxytocin to laboring animals since they might not be producing eggs because of a blockage but sometimes their contractions aren't strong enough. Xrays will help you and a vet decide how to proceed.

I would not do surgery on a chameleon because it has notoriously poor outcome and is very expensive. Often by the time you get to the point of deciding to do the surgery, the animal is in such poor shape they have almost no chance of surviving the surgery even in the hands of the best reptile surgeon. This kind of surgery is very difficult surgery and requires a particularly skilled surgeon. I would never just let an animal die from dystocia. She gets the best care, not matter what my ultimate decision is.

I know I didn't give you the answers you want but hope I gave you a better understanding of what to expect. Good luck.

Thank you so much!!! I really appreciate the break down of what to look for! She seems like she isn't in distress by what you're describing but I can tell she is starting to get very close to ready to lay by this discription. She is visibly pregnant but she is still active, roaming the cage even more than usual, not eating much we find her sitting on the edge of the lay bin often in the mornings and late afternoons, she seems alert and isn't resting her eyes in the day at all still. She is still her beautiful display colors of gold and teal patterns and a very leafy green all over. She is eating superworms when I offer them and she ate a hornworm injected with a drop of liquid calcium today. I keep her covered with a blanket on the three out facing sides.

This is her today, She is drinking water in this picture.

 

[Ladythrasher89]

Also I live in Austin Texas and was referred to Wells Branch Bird and exotic clinic.

 

[Theveiled]

Thank you so much!!! I really appreciate the break down of what to look for! She seems like she isn't in distress by what you're describing but I can tell she is starting to get very close to ready to lay by this discription. She is visibly pregnant but she is still active, roaming the cage even more than usual, not eating much we find her sitting on the edge of the lay bin often in the mornings and late afternoons, she seems alert and isn't resting her eyes in the day at all still. She is still her beautiful display colors of gold and teal patterns and a very leafy green all over. She is eating superworms when I offer them and she ate a hornworm injected with a drop of liquid calcium today. I keep her covered with a blanket on the three out facing sides.

This is her today, She is drinking water in this picture.

I love the receptive colors! They are jsit so beautiful!

 

[Theveiled]

I love the receptive colors! They are jsit so beautiful!

*just (instead of jsit)

 

[jannb]

Dr. Brad Singleton is another vet in Austin that one of the forums member here uses just incase you need a second opinion or anything. http://southparkaustin.com

 

[jajeanpierre]

How's she doing? She might lay just find. She looks good in the photos. If she does need surgery be sure to get a good experienced vet. I can probably help you find one if you tell me where you are located. A long time ago this surgery was not very successful but more and more vets are having success with it all the time now. Our vet here on the forums is one of the sucessful vets with this surgery. I've had three girls to have the surgery and 2 of the three are still with me. One is 4 years post surgery and the other a year and a half post surgery and both are doing very well. Please keep us posted.

Wow, that's a lot of surgeries. How many females have you actually had? Which two are still with you after surgery? I remember all the trouble you had with Lottie. That was a nightmare.

 

[Ladythrasher89]

I love the receptive colors! They are jsit so beautiful!

She is so beautiful right now. She is so vibrant, too bad she hisses if you even look at her right now lol.