My Egg Binding Experiment

[Zen Reptiles]

It has always been my opinion that females should have access to whatever basking temperature they want so THEY can choose to thermoregulate, and that diet has more to do with egg production & particularly egg binding than heat. I had a customer who lost two females he got from me and 3 females he got from other breeders, all around egg laying time....and I didn't have answers, just opinions.

Then I had 2 other people who lost females (neither were bought from me) and kept asking me about every detail of their care. Again, no answers, just opinions. "Oh well everyone said I could feed her what she wanted to eat as long as I kept the temperature low." I found out later the first guy to contact me also read the same thing.

My motto is 'Popular opinion is just another word for BULL***' and so I took it upon myself to find the answers I needed to give people.

So I did an experiment to confirm what I already instinctively knew. This is by no means scientific, just a regular hobbyist trying some things out to maybe save some females from eggbinding out there....especially ones bought from me.

Two chameleons died in this experiment, and two chameleons lived.

What I did was took four female Nosy Be @ 3 months of age which I could not sell, trade, or even give away....no one wanted them at the time I was trying to sell them, so I kept them to do this experiment.

• 1) Two were fed ~10 crickets-worth of food* per day (often eating only 8-10 though), allowed 95F basking access, and normal supplementation. (Calcium most feedings, Multivitamin twice a month, D3 twice a month)

• 2) Two were fed no more than 5 crickets-worth of food per day, and often had 5-6 crickets every two days instead. Allowed 95F basking access, and normal supplementation.

• 1a) Both the well fed females died at 7 & 8 months of age with 27 & 29 eggs in them. For comparisons sake, all my panther clutches I've ever had have been no more than 21, usually 20 like clockwork.

• 2a) Both the diet-restricted females are still doing VERY well, and have not laid eggs. These females are 20 months old and have not laid their first clutch yet and still look far off from laying a clutch. They are healthy eaters, same size as all my other females. etc.

I started this experiment in May 2011, I was not using Repashy Calcium Plus for most of the lives of the two that died, so that was not a factor (for those following my other posts).

So? Both sets of females were given the same temperature but different amounts of food. So I recommend to people who buy from me that they keep females this way if they want to avoid egg problems. If they want to breed, I recommend that food has more to do with egg production than heat, and 6 to 8 crickets-worth of food per day, with days skipped frequently, would be best for breeding....keeping longevity and health in mind.


Note: I did not and am not going to experiment with feeding them a lot and keeping them at low temperatures. I learned what I wanted and feel I can say with confidence that food consumption leads to egg problems much more than heat does. And though I believe heat obviously has a lot to do with egg production, I believe over-feeding causes females to bask for longer periods to aid with digestion....inevitably & maybe inadvertently speeding up egg production at the same time .

The only variable I would consider was that some days were skipped. The same amount of food was offered at each feeding consistently, but yes some days were skipped when I was busy.

*Crickets-worth of food: Most feeding days were crickets, around 50% or more. I consider 1 large dubia to be equal to 5 crickets. 1 Turkish roach equal to 1 cricket. 1 large silkworm equal to 3-4 crickets. 1 large superworm equal to 3 crickets. and the occasional hornworm is, well....the occasional hornworm lol.

Thoughts?

 

[kinyonga]

The only reason I lower the temperature to the low to mid 80's F when keeping the females on a lower intact of insects is to slownthe metabolism slightly so they won't feel so hungry. My reasoning has nothing to do with egg production. However this does not prove/mean/disprove that they will produce less eggs or have fewer clutches when cooler. I've tried to make this reasoning clear many times. All I can say in addition to this is that the (whole) way I keep female veileds does keep them from producing eggs or from producing large clutches if they do happen to produce eggs and that they generally/almost always live to be six or more years old.

Interesting to read about your experiment and the results! Glad that you are not going to try feeding them well and keeping the temps low though.

 

[Olimpia]

I find it a little odd that females would die of egg binding at all if provided with a laying bin, especially so many females. Female panthers are known to lay many more eggs than 20 and don't all drop dead from the sheer number of them, the problem tends to stem from not having an adequate place to lay/not being able to lay in peace. Lots of food (unless it caused both females to be impacted) shouldn't equal not being able to physically lay the eggs. Not to undermine your experiment, but it feels like something else is at play.

I'm curious to see what the forum vets say about all this if they come across this thread.

 

[Zen Reptiles]

I too found it very interesting they didn't attempt to lay. They had 2 laying bins each from 6 months on. + plant pots. Impaction could have been a problem but I didn't notice anything obstructive masses when I looked inside them.

In later discussion with the people who contacted me...theirs never attempted to lay either and were provided laying bins. So it's interesting you bring that up.

There could be 100 variables, but having two healthy females go 20 months without laying eggs is a big success for knowing how to give others advice on how to prevent egg laying and that was my goal.

 

[ataraxia]

At what age did you start limiting feeders? I would have to agree with olimpia. Not to discredit you or your findings but something doesnt seem right.

 

[leedragon]

My motto is 'Popular opinion is just another word for BULL***'

I couldn´t agree more

So I did an experiment to confirm what I already instinctively knew. This is by no means scientific, just a regular hobbyist trying some things out to maybe save some females from eggbinding out there....especially ones bought from me.

but this is science, experimenting and observing.

interesting and good job man

 

[Zen Reptiles]

At 3 months of age I changed their diets.

 

[Lathelia]

So how many times per week were they fed 5-6 crickets?
It seems a lot to me. I only have one female f. pardalis, and she was fed 2-3 crickets (or equivalent) plus low temps and became gravid during her second receptive cycle.
Sorry if it's a bit off topic.

 

[Zen Reptiles]

They were/are fed more days than were skipped, but I usually skipped a day between feedings or fed them the equivalent of 6 feeders every two days (3/day).

I usually feed 4 days of the week if that helps answer your question. I will say with the well-fed females, there were always a cricket or two left over from the previous day that they would eat on 'skipped' days.

What I found is when you give them access to high temps and don't feed them as much, they don't use the high temps nearly as much as if you gave them more food. Making food intake directly related to self-controlled thermoregulation.

I think higher temperatures are critical in controlling internal parasites, bacteria, lung health, and everyday bodily functions/metabolism. I never agreed with the 80F basking spot so many people recommend so that's why I wanted to find out myself if it was high temps alone that cause egg production. I think your method works too (you don't overfeed), I just don't think low temps are optimal.

 

[Lathelia]

Thank you for your response. That's very interesting, though I always thought/read it was the food intake that's the main issue here.

 

[shaunaroxanne]

I know you have a lot more experience than I do, so I hope this isn't a silly question.... but isn't 3-4 months very early to limit feeding? I'm just thinking that at 3-4 months, they are not physically done growing yet, so if you limit their food, wouldn't that keep them from growing properly, which could cause them to not be able to develop eggs? If you do breed these females, don't you worry that they too could become egg bound simply because they may be too small from such a restricted diet at a young age?

 

[Lathelia]

I know you have a lot more experience than I do, so I hope this isn't a silly question.... but isn't 3-4 months very early to limit feeding? I'm just thinking that at 3-4 months, they are not physically done growing yet, so if you limit their food, wouldn't that keep them from growing properly, which could cause them to not be able to develop eggs? If you do breed these females, don't you worry that they too could become egg bound simply because they may be too small from such a restricted diet at a young age?

Hi,
You start reducing food intake at that time, but not dramatically. They still eat more then adults do.
At that age they probably still eat more they would if they were in the wild. It's always healthier to feed them less then more. IMO.

 

[sarahlynne]

if you already knew what would happen, i don't think it was necessary to over feed your chameleons till they died!!