Naturalistic Diet

[cyberlocc]

Okay, so this came up in another thread as a derail, so I thought it best to move it here.

@CasqueAbove Wanted a more Naturalistic Diet, so we delve into a Study that @JacksJill Provided. My comment was analyzing the data and finding the Families that are represented and translating them.


Jacksjills Study, would play a hand to that.

Bees make up a very small portion of the diet, in her link (first one offers breakdowns). Here is that section.

So 32 Hymenoptera, 2 of them were Bees, Apidae are bees, the other 3 are wasps.

That means they ate more Roaches, than they did "Bees"

As to the Beetles, what kind.

Cerambicidae: Longhorn Beetle.
Chrysomelidae: Leaf Beetle (large family, not very specific)
Coccinellidae: Ladybugs, odd as I have been lead to believe these are toxic to reptiles.
Curculionidae : True Weevils
Elateridae: Click Beetles


Funny enough, as Petr is always talking about pollinators, none of those beetles are pollinators, except maybe some of the Leaf Beetles, but they only ate 1.

Ladybugs, eat mostly aphids, mites, whiteflies and scale insects. They are themselves insectivores.

Weevils, some do eat some pollen, however they are not strictly pollinators, at all. they also eat leaves, and decaying matter, and depending on the species, certain plant matter. Such as Rice, Grain ect.

Calliphoridae: Carrion Flies, or Blue Bottle/Green Bottle flies. In the wild, these feast on well carrion. So there is Preformed Vit A, and alot of it, seeing how this is the biggest number of any insect.
Stratiomyidae: Solider flies, which we are all familiar.
Syrphidae: Hoverflies, pollinators, so there is some pollen insects.
Drosophilidae: Fruit Flies, Drain Flies, ect.

Cicadellidae: Leafhoppers, NOT to be confused with Grasshoppers, these guys suck sap from plants and trees.
Cixiidae: Planthoppers, Aphids, Scale, Whiteflies, basically the things the lady bugs eat. Small insects.
Psylidae: Plant lice again very tiny, like planthoppers.


Now let us Delve into these and what we can do, to get some in the Culture, and move to a more natural Feeding as @PetNcs suggests is best to do.

Does anyone keep any of these as feeders, can you share youre experience with them and how to cage them, and care for them ect?

 

[cyberlocc]

Also some more data,

CasqueAbove said:
I don't want to stir the pot. But wouldn't Hawaii be outside native ranges?

The important thing is that this does point out that they can adapt to different pray, and are not exclusive feeders.

The Jackson's of Hawaii, have been there a long time, and are pretty well established.

There again, there is not really that drastic of a difference here, especially as a lot of these are subdivided by family or genus. The same insects, or similar would be present in both regions, minor differences, sure, but very similar in diets and compositions.

A bee is a bee, pretty much period. Some minor differences sure, but nothing that drastic, as far as being eaten is concerned surely. There could be exceptions, such as unusual insects that are only found in 1, like the Malagasy Green Emerald Pill Millipede, that Lemurs use to make medicine and cannot survive without. There, another issue arises as the millipedes cannot survive without a microbe they only get in Madagascar, and thus relocation in large quantities is not possible (Not even 1 millipede can survive in captivity, people have tried, no one has succeeded, they always starve to death)

However, commonly kept Chameleons obviously do not possess such a relationship as evidenced by wild populations elsewhere, and captivity.


As to not being very species agnostic, or area. Ya I would love to see this kind of data on a Panther, or a Parsons. No one has done it. Petrs "doing Fecals" is not evidence of anything, this study required hundreds of chameleons to be put down and autopsied to retrieve intestinal contents, and then need to be DNA sequenced, to see what the insects actually are.

This is way more time and money, than anyone is likely to put into the research. Unless, as is the case with Hawaii, they are doing so for a Invasive species to see, what the possibility of damage to the local ecosystem is.

That study was not done to tell Jacksons keepers the wild diet, it was done to tell Hawaii how much Impact Jacksons Chameleons could and will have.



Also. even if we had a 100% for sure, Panther Chameleon list, these are broken down by family, not be actual species (mostly some are in another graph).

So we would have no way to correlate to what it was precisely, and even if we did, good luck finding it. A lot of insects are not able to be purchased in the states, Importation, with most of these being plant pests, HA ya no. We are lucky to have like Madagascar hissing roaches as it is lol, and they eat mostly leaf litter.



Also @snitz427 brought up Lady Beetles toxicty, thats where we left off. To that, I say.


To be fair, and I should have clarified this when it was brought up.

From my Limited reading on the Ladybugs, they are only toxic when eaten in large amounts, and even then its like diarrhea, not death.

(Added)
However we should look for a non Toxic Lady bug so lets put our heads together.

 

[cyberlocc]

Petr has also stated he does not feel the study is accurate to Chameleons in their native ranges, as below.

Blattodea are not explicitely roaches, it might refer to termites as well

to argument with food of feral chameleons is stupid, i did not refer to unnatural conditions

so far, the sirviving in captivity longer than in the wild refers to a handful of species (calyptratus and pardalis mainly), a vast majority species does not apply at all.

to feed „better“ requires detailed knowöedge what is natiral and what not. And to say that tosches are better food than tjeir natiral ones is absolutely absurd, there is no base for saying that

gutloading is another a solutely problematic area, I do NOT believe it at all, itnis highly overestimated and parotted without any base and research
Same
As the statement about necessity of varied diet: there is no oong term study availaböe, but based on what I have seen during 30years, xhameleons are opportunistic feeders and their diet is rather uniform if analysed one by one

My Reply.

That study is very accurate and would be likely identical of that of one taken in Kenya. All of those species, are found both in Hawaii and in Kenya, the pattern would remain the same. At least to a family level, which is as far as I took it.

So I would say that study is pretty accurate, as far as Gutloading, that is simply a catch all to make sure we provide as much variety as possible.

You are sticking to the pollinator idea, which I am with you, there is quite a few pollinators. BUT there is not solely pollinators, and that is where the other gut loading comes in. Chameleons do not just eat pollinators.

There diet is rather uniform, however in its uniformity there is a drastic difference in prey items. There is pollinators, there is Leaf eaters, there is insectivores, there is carrion eaters, ect. This provides a more diverse diet of feeders with diverse diets to fill gaps.

 

[cyberlocc]

@Redman Seems to have BSFs in a small container nailed, can you share with use here your caging technique and some pictures red?

It would be super helpful.

 

[cyberlocc]

THEY ABSOLUTELY DO NOT
A statement that xhameleons feed predominantly on ladybugs is simply false
Undoubtedly

A large mix, in a study, a Real Study, with undigested food, and DNA sequencing says different Petr. Sorry but that is going to trump, what you THINK they eat, IMO.

However are you saying Chameleons do not eat ladybugs? Rather Lady Beetles as they are often called.

 

[Redman]

Don't have any pics at the moment, and I fed them all off recently, but am getting ready to do a new batch within the next couple of weeks. I will happily document and share if you would like.

 

[CasqueAbove]

Okay, so this came up in another thread as a derail, so I thought it best to move it here.

@CasqueAbove Wanted a more Naturalistic Diet, so we delve into a Study that @JacksJill Provided. My comment was analyzing the data and finding the Families that are represented and translating them.


Jacksjills Study, would play a hand to that.

Bees make up a very small portion of the diet, in her link (first one offers breakdowns). Here is that section.

So 32 Hymenoptera, 2 of them were Bees, Apidae are bees, the other 3 are wasps.

That means they ate more Roaches, than they did "Bees"

As to the Beetles, what kind.

Cerambicidae: Longhorn Beetle.
Chrysomelidae: Leaf Beetle (large family, not very specific)
Coccinellidae: Ladybugs, odd as I have been lead to believe these are toxic to reptiles.
Curculionidae : True Weevils
Elateridae: Click Beetles


Funny enough, as Petr is always talking about pollinators, none of those beetles are pollinators, except maybe some of the Leaf Beetles, but they only ate 1.

Ladybugs, eat mostly aphids, mites, whiteflies and scale insects. They are themselves insectivores.

Weevils, some do eat some pollen, however they are not strictly pollinators, at all. they also eat leaves, and decaying matter, and depending on the species, certain plant matter. Such as Rice, Grain ect.

Calliphoridae: Carrion Flies, or Blue Bottle/Green Bottle flies. In the wild, these feast on well carrion. So there is Preformed Vit A, and alot of it, seeing how this is the biggest number of any insect.
Stratiomyidae: Solider flies, which we are all familiar.
Syrphidae: Hoverflies, pollinators, so there is some pollen insects.
Drosophilidae: Fruit Flies, Drain Flies, ect.

Cicadellidae: Leafhoppers, NOT to be confused with Grasshoppers, these guys suck sap from plants and trees.
Cixiidae: Planthoppers, Aphids, Scale, Whiteflies, basically the things the lady bugs eat. Small insects.
Psylidae: Plant lice again very tiny, like planthoppers.


Now let us Delve into these and what we can do, to get some in the Culture, and move to a more natural Feeding as @PetNcs suggests is best to do.

Does anyone keep any of these as feeders, can you share youre experience with them and how to cage them, and care for them ect?

On this aspect I have also been looking into the booming " pet Insect" market. Where most of these are larger, and could probably kill a chameleon, they would not make great feeders.

It is their husbandry and variety I am interested it.

Right now, as an insect, you are either:
A : prolific and used for food. Weather or not you are nutrient is irrelevant.
B : large and attractive/scary

There must be a number of species that we are not utilizing. I mean how many bugs are there millions of species .

I have considered baby, or appropriately sized mantis. But I do not feel the gain is worth the risk.

More species please.

 

[Redman]

I am in the process of trying baby mantis with my current clutch of new panther babies. The mantis are due to hatch in about 10 days. I bought 5 ootheca and am planning on warming one up every week or so (they take 2 weeks to hatch according to the seller).

I have tried stick insects, but wasn't happy with the time it takes for the eggs to hatch.

 

[cyberlocc]

On this aspect I have also been looking into the booming " pet Insect" market. Where most of these are larger, and could probably kill a chameleon, they would not make great feeders.

It is their husbandry and variety I am interested it.

Right now, as an insect, you are either:
A : prolific and used for food. Weather or not you are nutrient is irrelevant.
B : large and attractive/scary

There must be a number of species that we are not utilizing. I mean how many bugs are there millions of species .

I have considered baby, or appropriately sized mantis. But I do not feel the gain is worth the risk.

More species please.

I dont think there is much risk with Mantids, I have been considering Mantids, they are cool from a Pet Perspective as well as a Feeder Perspective.

Ghost Mantids, have caught my eye, as kind of communal, they are small, but they eat ALOT of flys, so that would require active feeders for them.

 

[cyberlocc]

@PetNcs Said
honey bees are great
Each beehive has about 40-50t bees, I have three
ou can easily feed drones and old bees without any harm to the colony

house flies: easy to breed. In EU, they are produced in tons for fishing as larvae, you just let them pupate and metamorph

beetles: the ciconiidae are easy to breed and ai would not feed larvae bur adult beetles of some small species of eg. Pachnoda sp.


Petr, Pachnoda Sp. Are not small, not really? They are 1/2-3/4 inch, and we cannot get them stateside. The closest we have is G. caseyi me and @jamest0o0 are currently working with this species.

I am planning to try and get them on a more healthy pollen based diet when my current pupa emerge.

 

[CasqueAbove]

I dont think there is much risk with Mantids, I have been considering Mantids, they are cool from a Pet Perspective as well as a Feeder Perspective.

Ghost Mantids, have caught my eye, as kind of communal, they are small, but they eat ALOT of flys, so that would require active feeders for them.

My thought was to get them seasonal. Buy the egg bundles they sell for pest control.
Again theorizing but I would suspect their diet to be seasonal. At least for Veilds. Those are what I have been studding specifically.
I have been looking in to the northern region of Yemen and I believe it to be seasonal. Way wetter and higher humidity than expected. Though I have only been watching the region for a couple weeks now.

 

[PetNcs]

Not thisnis not what I

A large mix, in a study, a Real Study, with undigested food, and DNA sequencing says different Petr. Sorry but that is going to trump, what you THINK they eat, IMO.

However are you saying Chameleons do not eat ladybugs? Rather Lady Beetles as they are often called.

Not thisnis not what I am saying
oj inow whag I am saying
DO
NOT TWIST MY WORDS

there is nit enough of these animals to be a focus of them
Itnis wrong conclusion that can not be generalized

 

[PetNcs]

My thought was to get them seasonal. Buy the egg bundles they sell for pest control.
Again theorizing but I would suspect their diet to be seasonal. At least for Veilds. Those are what I have been studding specifically.
I have been looking in to the northern region of Yemen and I believe it to be seasonal. Way wetter and higher humidity than expected. Though I have only been watching the region for a couple weeks now.

what region are yoj looking at? A vast majority of people looks at wrong areas

 

[snitz427]

I am in the process of trying baby mantis with my current clutch of new panther babies. The mantis are due to hatch in about 10 days. I bought 5 ootheca and am planning on warming one up every week or so (they take 2 weeks to hatch according to the seller).

I have tried stick insects, but wasn't happy with the time it takes for the eggs to hatch.

I highly recommend vietnamese sticks... prolific and hardy. A little patience will reward you with a colony you can regularly feed from.

I have carolina mantid ooths im each enclosure, currently. Carolinas are much smaller than chinese mantids. I figure theyll eat each other, soil gnats, bsf, etc and hopefully one day get sniped by the chams.

Im surprised leaf hoppers, aphids, and other plant pests showed in the results. They’re fairly small!

 

[snitz427]

I dont think there is much risk with Mantids, I have been considering Mantids, they are cool from a Pet Perspective as well as a Feeder Perspective.

Ghost Mantids, have caught my eye, as kind of communal, they are small, but they eat ALOT of flys, so that would require active feeders for them.

I had hopes for ghost mantids but the only supplier I found seems to have taken my money and run

 

[cyberlocc]

I had hopes for ghost mantids but the only supplier I found seems to have taken my money and run

Ouch, who was that? So I dont have the same luck.

 

[PetNcs]

Petr, Pachnoda Sp. Are not small, not really? They are 1/2-3/4 inch, and we cannot get them stateside. The closest we have is G. caseyi me and @jamest0o0 are currently working with this species.

Some Pachnoda species are really small, less the. ½ inch definitely but I recon they are not in colonies yet, as mainly big ones are bread.
G caseyi seems to me a good choice

 

[snitz427]

Ouch, who was that? So I dont have the same luck.

Usmantis.com. Its been 2 months... and Im fine waiting if needed, but theyve been unresponsive. Ill be filing a claim for a refund.

 

[cyberlocc]

As I'm not sure of a mantid population or the size of them in Hawaii, @PetNcs have you seen Chameleons take to Mantids in the wild? Ghost Mantids? African Gambits? What kind if you know?

 

[CasqueAbove]

what region are yoj looking at? A vast majority of people looks at wrong areas

I am looking at the coastal mountain range in from Al Hudaydah. I do not know Yemen at all this was my best guess.

This is the satalite I am using.
https://satellites.pro/Yemen_map#14.708146,43.121681,11

It is interesting, they have wayyy better imagery in this region compared to google and current weather that adjusts to where you are looking.