Need Help!!!

[hiddenflaws]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Basil (formerly known as Pascal); Male veiled chameleon; 7-8 months (?); Has been in my care since February 18 of this year.
• Handling - I use to handle him twice a week, but since this problem has started, I have only handled him a total of two times.
• Feeding - I feed my chameleon a total of 10 crickets. He never fails to finish and eats all of them. From time to time, I do give him horn worms. I gutload with sweet potatoes, potatoes, and carrots for the most part, but sometimes I will add other things depending on what I have. I will feed the crickets early in the morning in order for him to have time to digest and bask during the day.
• Supplements - I switched over to the Rep-Cal brand exactly two weeks ago. I dust the feeders with the Rep-Cal Calcium (0% D3; Green) every day. Every two weeks I dust them with the Rep-Cal Herptivite (with beta carotene; blue) Multivitamins and the Rep-Cal Phosphorous-Free Calcium with Vit. D3 (Ultrafine Powder; pink) every two weeks.
• Watering - I use the MistKing System with the timer. The mister goes off three times a day at 9:00 AM (2 Minutes), 2:15 PM (1 Minute, 15 Seconds), and 5:00 PM (2 Minutes). I have caught my chameleon drinking several times.
• Fecal Description - My chameleon has been tested for parasites recently. He was luckily parasite-free! His poop is solid and brown and his urate is a whitish-yellow.
• History - None that I am aware.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Glass; Exo Terra Glass Terrarium 36"x18"x36"
• Lighting - All lights are one from 9 AM to 9 PM. I use a timer to keep this schedule. As of now, I am using a 60W DayTime Heat Lamp by Exo Terra. For UVB, I am using the Zoo Med ReptiSun T5 HO bulb.
• Temperature - I use a digital thermo/hydrometer to see my temps and humidity levels. Temps usually stay between 80-84F during the day; 67-71F at night with the hot weather right now.
• Humidity - During the day, it ranges from 43-55%. At night, the levels will increase to the high 90s. The mist king goes off during the day and I have a fogger that runs for a few hours at night.
• Plants - Live Plants; Parlor Palm, Corn Plant, Golden Pothos, True Boston Fern, Schefflera Arboricola, and Dracaena 'Janet Craig Compacta'
• Placement - Sits on top of a (horizontal) dresser that is the opposite side from the air vents.
• Location - Mississippi

Current Problem - Eyes are sunk in. This has been a problem since he was moved into his new enclosure. Me and @Kristen Wilkins have been trying to figure out the issue over text. We first started to see if he was dehydrated so that's when I started to give horn worms more and this did not help. To add, he was indeed seen drinking several times, but it was worth to check. I even removed some plants in the enclosure and added three new ones because the vet said it could be the plants (the three i removed where new to him, the others where in his past enclosure and there was no issue. The vet didn't seem to help, honestly). She also gave me an eye cream to put on his eyes twice a day and it seemed to do nothing. We also decided to switch supplements. I was using the Repashy Calcium Plus (Vitamin and Calcium Supplements) since the day I got him until I recently switched to the three currently supplements I mentioned above.

Hopefully I went over everything! Pictures of his eyes are below. All images were taken right before uploading thread. He was eating a cricket that I gave him in order to get him to look at the camera better and is wet from the mister going off. ((

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Basil (formerly known as Pascal); Male veiled chameleon; 7-8 months (?); Has been in my care since February 18 of this year.
• Handling - I use to handle him twice a week, but since this problem has started, I have only handled him a total of two times.
• Feeding - I feed my chameleon a total of 10 crickets. He never fails to finish and eats all of them. From time to time, I do give him horn worms. I gutload with sweet potatoes, potatoes, and carrots for the most part, but sometimes I will add other things depending on what I have. I will feed the crickets early in the morning in order for him to have time to digest and bask during the day.
• Supplements - I switched over to the Rep-Cal brand exactly two weeks ago. I dust the feeders with the Rep-Cal Calcium (0% D3; Green) every day. Every two weeks I dust them with the Rep-Cal Herptivite (with beta carotene; blue) Multivitamins and the Rep-Cal Phosphorous-Free Calcium with Vit. D3 (Ultrafine Powder; pink) every two weeks.
• Watering - I use the MistKing System with the timer. The mister goes off three times a day at 9:00 AM (2 Minutes), 2:15 PM (1 Minute, 15 Seconds), and 5:00 PM (2 Minutes). I have caught my chameleon drinking several times.
• Fecal Description - My chameleon has been tested for parasites recently. He was luckily parasite-free! His poop is solid and brown and his urate is a whitish-yellow.
• History - None that I am aware.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Glass; Exo Terra Glass Terrarium 36"x18"x36"
• Lighting - All lights are one from 9 AM to 9 PM. I use a timer to keep this schedule. As of now, I am using a 60W DayTime Heat Lamp by Exo Terra. For UVB, I am using the Zoo Med ReptiSun T5 HO bulb.
• Temperature - I use a digital thermo/hydrometer to see my temps and humidity levels. Temps usually stay between 80-84F during the day; 67-71F at night with the hot weather right now.
• Humidity - During the day, it ranges from 43-55%. At night, the levels will increase to the high 90s. The mist king goes off during the day and I have a fogger that runs for a few hours at night.
• Plants - Live Plants; Parlor Palm, Corn Plant, Golden Pothos, True Boston Fern, Schefflera Arboricola, and Dracaena 'Janet Craig Compacta'
• Placement - Sits on top of a (horizontal) dresser that is the opposite side from the air vents.
• Location - Mississippi

Current Problem - Eyes are sunk in. This has been a problem since he was moved into his new enclosure. Me and @Kristen Wilkins have been trying to figure out the issue over text. We first started to see if he was dehydrated so that's when I started to give horn worms more and this did not help. To add, he was indeed seen drinking several times, but it was worth to check. I even removed some plants in the enclosure and added three new ones because the vet said it could be the plants (the three i removed where new to him, the others where in his past enclosure and there was no issue. The vet didn't seem to help, honestly). She also gave me an eye cream to put on his eyes twice a day and it seemed to do nothing. We also decided to switch supplements. I was using the Repashy Calcium Plus (Vitamin and Calcium Supplements) since the day I got him until I recently switched to the three currently supplements I mentioned above.

Hopefully I went over everything! Pictures of his eyes are below. All images were taken right before uploading thread. He was eating a cricket that I gave him in order to get him to look at the camera better and is wet from the mister going off. ()

@Beman @JoXie411 @kinyonga @jannb ??

 

[Beman]

@Beman @JoXie411 @kinyonga @jannb ??

Making my rounds on help forms now lol. I will work on this one.

 

[Beman]

@hiddenflaws Hi there. See my feedback in red bold.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Basil (formerly known as Pascal); Male veiled chameleon; 7-8 months (?); Has been in my care since February 18 of this year.
• Handling - I use to handle him twice a week, but since this problem has started, I have only handled him a total of two times.
• Feeding - I feed my chameleon a total of 10 crickets. He never fails to finish and eats all of them. From time to time, I do give him horn worms. I gutload with sweet potatoes, potatoes, and carrots for the most part, but sometimes I will add other things depending on what I have. I will feed the crickets early in the morning in order for him to have time to digest and bask during the day. I would expand gutload and add in some green veg. see gutload sheet below.
• Supplements - I switched over to the Rep-Cal brand exactly two weeks ago. I dust the feeders with the Rep-Cal Calcium (0% D3; Green) every day. Every two weeks I dust them with the Rep-Cal Herptivite (with beta carotene; blue) Multivitamins and the Rep-Cal Phosphorous-Free Calcium with Vit. D3 (Ultrafine Powder; pink) every two weeks. So I am not a fan of the Herptivite. It does not have preformed vitamin A in it. The calcium without D3 is good. I would drop the other two and use Reptivite WITH D3. This would be given 2 times a month only. It is your multivitamin and D3. Then all other feedings use the rep calcium without D3.
• Watering - I use the MistKing System with the timer. The mister goes off three times a day at 9:00 AM (2 Minutes), 2:15 PM (1 Minute, 15 Seconds), and 5:00 PM (2 Minutes). I have caught my chameleon drinking several times.
• Fecal Description - My chameleon has been tested for parasites recently. He was luckily parasite-free! His poop is solid and brown and his urate is a whitish-yellow.
• History - None that I am aware.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Glass; Exo Terra Glass Terrarium 36"x18"x36"
• Lighting - All lights are one from 9 AM to 9 PM. I use a timer to keep this schedule. As of now, I am using a 60W DayTime Heat Lamp by Exo Terra. For UVB, I am using the Zoo Med ReptiSun T5 HO bulb. What bulb strength are you using? 5.0 or 10.0 what is the distance from the bulb to basking level?
• Temperature - I use a digital thermo/hydrometer to see my temps and humidity levels. Temps usually stay between 80-84F during the day; 67-71F at night with the hot weather right now.
• Humidity - During the day, it ranges from 43-55%. At night, the levels will increase to the high 90s. The mist king goes off during the day and I have a fogger that runs for a few hours at night.
• Plants - Live Plants; Parlor Palm, Corn Plant, Golden Pothos, True Boston Fern, Schefflera Arboricola, and Dracaena 'Janet Craig Compacta'
• Placement - Sits on top of a (horizontal) dresser that is the opposite side from the air vents.
• Location - Mississippi

Current Problem - Eyes are sunk in. This has been a problem since he was moved into his new enclosure. Me and @Kristen Wilkins have been trying to figure out the issue over text. We first started to see if he was dehydrated so that's when I started to give horn worms more and this did not help. To add, he was indeed seen drinking several times, but it was worth to check. I even removed some plants in the enclosure and added three new ones because the vet said it could be the plants (the three i removed where new to him, the others where in his past enclosure and there was no issue. The vet didn't seem to help, honestly). She also gave me an eye cream to put on his eyes twice a day and it seemed to do nothing. We also decided to switch supplements. I was using the Repashy Calcium Plus (Vitamin and Calcium Supplements) since the day I got him until I recently switched to the three currently supplements I mentioned above.

Tell me about the old enclosure... Was it screen? Did you change where the enclosure is? Any mirrors near the enclosure?

 

[hiddenflaws]

@hiddenflaws Hi there. See my feedback in red bold.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Basil (formerly known as Pascal); Male veiled chameleon; 7-8 months (?); Has been in my care since February 18 of this year.
• Handling - I use to handle him twice a week, but since this problem has started, I have only handled him a total of two times.
• Feeding - I feed my chameleon a total of 10 crickets. He never fails to finish and eats all of them. From time to time, I do give him horn worms. I gutload with sweet potatoes, potatoes, and carrots for the most part, but sometimes I will add other things depending on what I have. I will feed the crickets early in the morning in order for him to have time to digest and bask during the day. I would expand gutload and add in some green veg. see gutload sheet below. I do this every now and then. I will include more greens for now on
• Supplements - I switched over to the Rep-Cal brand exactly two weeks ago. I dust the feeders with the Rep-Cal Calcium (0% D3; Green) every day. Every two weeks I dust them with the Rep-Cal Herptivite (with beta carotene; blue) Multivitamins and the Rep-Cal Phosphorous-Free Calcium with Vit. D3 (Ultrafine Powder; pink) every two weeks. So I am not a fan of the Herptivite. It does not have preformed vitamin A in it. The calcium without D3 is good. I would drop the other two and use Reptivite WITH D3. This would be given 2 times a month only. It is your multivitamin and D3. Then all other feedings use the rep calcium without D3. Will look into those!
• Watering - I use the MistKing System with the timer. The mister goes off three times a day at 9:00 AM (2 Minutes), 2:15 PM (1 Minute, 15 Seconds), and 5:00 PM (2 Minutes). I have caught my chameleon drinking several times.
• Fecal Description - My chameleon has been tested for parasites recently. He was luckily parasite-free! His poop is solid and brown and his urate is a whitish-yellow.
• History - None that I am aware.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Glass; Exo Terra Glass Terrarium 36"x18"x36"
• Lighting - All lights are one from 9 AM to 9 PM. I use a timer to keep this schedule. As of now, I am using a 60W DayTime Heat Lamp by Exo Terra. For UVB, I am using the Zoo Med ReptiSun T5 HO bulb. What bulb strength are you using? 5.0 or 10.0 what is the distance from the bulb to basking level? 5.0. It’s at least 6 inches away from him ((
• Temperature - I use a digital thermo/hydrometer to see my temps and humidity levels. Temps usually stay between 80-84F during the day; 67-71F at night with the hot weather right now.
• Humidity - During the day, it ranges from 43-55%. At night, the levels will increase to the high 90s. The mist king goes off during the day and I have a fogger that runs for a few hours at night.
• Plants - Live Plants; Parlor Palm, Corn Plant, Golden Pothos, True Boston Fern, Schefflera Arboricola, and Dracaena 'Janet Craig Compacta'
• Placement - Sits on top of a (horizontal) dresser that is the opposite side from the air vents.
• Location - Mississippi

Current Problem - Eyes are sunk in. This has been a problem since he was moved into his new enclosure. Me and @Kristen Wilkins have been trying to figure out the issue over text. We first started to see if he was dehydrated so that's when I started to give horn worms more and this did not help. To add, he was indeed seen drinking several times, but it was worth to check. I even removed some plants in the enclosure and added three new ones because the vet said it could be the plants (the three i removed where new to him, the others where in his past enclosure and there was no issue. The vet didn't seem to help, honestly). She also gave me an eye cream to put on his eyes twice a day and it seemed to do nothing. We also decided to switch supplements. I was using the Repashy Calcium Plus (Vitamin and Calcium Supplements) since the day I got him until I recently switched to the three currently supplements I mentioned above.

Tell me about the old enclosure... Was it screen? Did you change where the enclosure is? Any mirrors near the enclosure? Old enclosure was glass as well and sat in the same spot as the current one. Before, I use to use fake plants instead of live. No mirrors are in the room.

View attachment 270309

my replies are in purple! Thank you for the reply and the help! Any advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[DocZ]

I’m brand new to chameleon care, but judging by @Beman’s response there’s concern of a vitamin A deficiency. Would adding silkworms to mix be helpful? It’s the only common feeder with naturally occurring measurable levels of vitamin A

https://www.completecritter.com/feeder-insects.html

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

I’m brand new to chameleon care, but judging by @Beman’s response there’s concern of a vitamin A deficiency. Would adding silkworms to mix be helpful? It’s the only common feeder with naturally occurring measurable levels of vitamin A

https://www.completecritter.com/feeder-insects.html

She was using repashy cal LoD . It’s not likely vitamin A . However We have been seeing an increase of issues with repashy . Why ashley switched it’s only been 2 weeks .

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

@hiddenflaws Hi there. See my feedback in red bold.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Basil (formerly known as Pascal); Male veiled chameleon; 7-8 months (?); Has been in my care since February 18 of this year.
• Handling - I use to handle him twice a week, but since this problem has started, I have only handled him a total of two times.
• Feeding - I feed my chameleon a total of 10 crickets. He never fails to finish and eats all of them. From time to time, I do give him horn worms. I gutload with sweet potatoes, potatoes, and carrots for the most part, but sometimes I will add other things depending on what I have. I will feed the crickets early in the morning in order for him to have time to digest and bask during the day. I would expand gutload and add in some green veg. see gutload sheet below.
• Supplements - I switched over to the Rep-Cal brand exactly two weeks ago. I dust the feeders with the Rep-Cal Calcium (0% D3; Green) every day. Every two weeks I dust them with the Rep-Cal Herptivite (with beta carotene; blue) Multivitamins and the Rep-Cal Phosphorous-Free Calcium with Vit. D3 (Ultrafine Powder; pink) every two weeks. So I am not a fan of the Herptivite. It does not have preformed vitamin A in it. The calcium without D3 is good. I would drop the other two and use Reptivite WITH D3. This would be given 2 times a month only. It is your multivitamin and D3. Then all other feedings use the rep calcium without D3.
• Watering - I use the MistKing System with the timer. The mister goes off three times a day at 9:00 AM (2 Minutes), 2:15 PM (1 Minute, 15 Seconds), and 5:00 PM (2 Minutes). I have caught my chameleon drinking several times.
• Fecal Description - My chameleon has been tested for parasites recently. He was luckily parasite-free! His poop is solid and brown and his urate is a whitish-yellow.
• History - None that I am aware.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Glass; Exo Terra Glass Terrarium 36"x18"x36"
• Lighting - All lights are one from 9 AM to 9 PM. I use a timer to keep this schedule. As of now, I am using a 60W DayTime Heat Lamp by Exo Terra. For UVB, I am using the Zoo Med ReptiSun T5 HO bulb. What bulb strength are you using? 5.0 or 10.0 what is the distance from the bulb to basking level?
• Temperature - I use a digital thermo/hydrometer to see my temps and humidity levels. Temps usually stay between 80-84F during the day; 67-71F at night with the hot weather right now.
• Humidity - During the day, it ranges from 43-55%. At night, the levels will increase to the high 90s. The mist king goes off during the day and I have a fogger that runs for a few hours at night.
• Plants - Live Plants; Parlor Palm, Corn Plant, Golden Pothos, True Boston Fern, Schefflera Arboricola, and Dracaena 'Janet Craig Compacta'
• Placement - Sits on top of a (horizontal) dresser that is the opposite side from the air vents.
• Location - Mississippi

Current Problem - Eyes are sunk in. This has been a problem since he was moved into his new enclosure. Me and @Kristen Wilkins have been trying to figure out the issue over text. We first started to see if he was dehydrated so that's when I started to give horn worms more and this did not help. To add, he was indeed seen drinking several times, but it was worth to check. I even removed some plants in the enclosure and added three new ones because the vet said it could be the plants (the three i removed where new to him, the others where in his past enclosure and there was no issue. The vet didn't seem to help, honestly). She also gave me an eye cream to put on his eyes twice a day and it seemed to do nothing. We also decided to switch supplements. I was using the Repashy Calcium Plus (Vitamin and Calcium Supplements) since the day I got him until I recently switched to the three currently supplements I mentioned above.

Tell me about the old enclosure... Was it screen? Did you change where the enclosure is? Any mirrors near the enclosure?

View attachment 270309

Becca she’s using a 5.0 .

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/looking-for-new-supplements.175824/post-1574039 just so y’all can see the threads .

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/help-me.173641/post-1548689 . I believe this is Ashley’s original thread with first enclosure. @hiddenflaws can confirm .

 

[kinyonga]

You said...Eyes are sunk in. This has been a problem since he was moved into his new enclosure"....and..."I even removed some plants in the enclosure and added three new ones because the vet said it could be the plants (the three i removed where new to him, the others where in his past enclosure and there was no issue"...what were the plants you removed?

You said..."Me and @Kristen Wilkins have been trying to figure out the issue over text. We first started to see if he was dehydrated so that's when I started to give horn worms more and this did not help. To add, he was indeed seen drinking several times, but it was worth to check"...good night o check on the hydration...but more times than not, the sunken eyes aren't really from dehydration but from something else that's going on.

You said..."The vet didn't seem to help, honestly). She also gave me an eye cream to put on his eyes twice a day and it seemed to do nothing. We also decided to switch supplements. I was using the Repashy Calcium Plus (Vitamin and Calcium Supplements) since the day I got him until I recently switched to the three currently supplements I mentioned above"...how much prEformed vitamin A does the Repashy you were using have in it? I don't think it's a vitamin A issue but just want to check.what about the amount of D3 he was getting before you changed supplements recently?

You didn't use any new branches or other things in the new cage?

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

You said...Eyes are sunk in. This has been a problem since he was moved into his new enclosure"....and..."I even removed some plants in the enclosure and added three new ones because the vet said it could be the plants (the three i removed where new to him, the others where in his past enclosure and there was no issue"...what were the plants you removed?

You said..."Me and @Kristen Wilkins have been trying to figure out the issue over text. We first started to see if he was dehydrated so that's when I started to give horn worms more and this did not help. To add, he was indeed seen drinking several times, but it was worth to check"...good night o check on the hydration...but more times than not, the sunken eyes aren't really from dehydration but from something else that's going on.

You said..."The vet didn't seem to help, honestly). She also gave me an eye cream to put on his eyes twice a day and it seemed to do nothing. We also decided to switch supplements. I was using the Repashy Calcium Plus (Vitamin and Calcium Supplements) since the day I got him until I recently switched to the three currently supplements I mentioned above"...how much prEformed vitamin A does the Repashy you were using have in it? I don't think it's a vitamin A issue but just want to check.what about the amount of D3 he was getting before you changed supplements recently?

You didn't use any new branches or other things in the new cage?

Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein min. .2%, Crude Fat min. .2%, Crude Fiber max. 4%, Moisture max. 8%, Calcium min. 17%, Vitamin A min. 80,000 IU/lb, Vitamin D min. 8,000 IU/lb, Vitamin E min. 8,000 IU/lb. (typo…… E should be 800iu.lb

 

[kinyonga]

Thanks @Kristen Wilkins !

 

[hiddenflaws]

You said...Eyes are sunk in. This has been a problem since he was moved into his new enclosure"....and..."I even removed some plants in the enclosure and added three new ones because the vet said it could be the plants (the three i removed where new to him, the others where in his past enclosure and there was no issue"...what were the plants you removed?

Bromelaid and dracaena were removed completely and replaced with three other plants that were mentioned in my first post. I also removed the corn plant but then added it back shorly after realizing the plants didn't seem to be an issue. ((( :

You didn't use any new branches or other things in the new cage?

Everything in the new enclsoure was new except for the parlor palm. I did use a golden pothos for when he was outside.

 

[jamest0o0]

If eyes have been sunkin in even with proper hydration, then it's probably not husbandry related. It could be an internal problem. Likely nothing to do with the supplements or food(not that there's not some adjustments that could be made). Veileds are generally very resilient and not as sensitive as people make them out to be, if something like this is happening it could be something serious out of your control. Then again, might not to be either.. IDK. I'd recommend a second vet opinion.

 

[hiddenflaws]

If eyes have been sunkin in even with proper hydration, then it's probably not husbandry related. It could be an internal problem. Likely nothing to do with the supplements or food(not that there's not some adjustments that could be made). Veileds are generally very resilient and not as sensitive as people make them out to be, if something like this is happening it could be something serious out of your control. Then again, might not to be either.. IDK. I'd recommend a second vet opinion.

Mind if I ask you to elaborate more on the internal problem? Just simply curious! ((
Also, do you know anyone who can recommend me a vet in Mississippi? I went to a vet clinic in Jackson (an hour and a half drive) and that was the closest I can find to me that will see reptiles. It was a vet clinic that was recommended to me by another vet. Not exactly the vet clinic itself but that they see reptiles.

 

[kinyonga]

What I'm asking is what plants and branches were different in the new cage from the plants and branches that were used in the old cage...so you may have used maple branches in the first cage but you're using oak branches in the new cage...you might have used schefflera in the last cage and now in the new cage you're using a ficus. I didn't want to have to go and read a lot of posts to find out.
Sorry.

 

[hiddenflaws]

What I'm asking is what plants and branches were different in the new cage from the plants and branches that were used in the old cage...so you may have used maple branches in the first cage but you're using oak branches in the new cage...you might have used schefflera in the last cage and now in the new cage you're using a ficus. I didn't want to have to go and read a lot of posts to find out.
Sorry.

Oh! My bad. I used all fake plants and vines in the first enclosure. The only thing that was real was the parlor palm, but I didn't really add it into there until a month and a half of having him. It was probably in there a few weeks before moving it into his new eclosure. Majority of the time, fake plants were used. That same parlor palm was used in his new home. Plants in the new enclosure are Parlor Palm, Corn Plant, Golden Pothos, True Boston Fern, Schefflera Arboricola, and Dracaena 'Janet Craig Compacta'.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

Mind if I ask you to elaborate more on the internal problem? Just simply curious! ()
Also, do you know anyone who can recommend me a vet in Mississippi? I went to a vet clinic in Jackson (an hour and a half drive) and that was the closest I can find to me that will see reptiles. It was a vet clinic that was recommended to me by another vet. Not exactly the vet clinic itself but that they see reptiles.

It could be genetic , Kidney issues , it’s not parasites that’s neg . However a sec test would not hurt . Basil did not do well that has to be kept in mind . It really stressed him .

 

[kinyonga]

Any of the branches that you used in the new enclosure ...were they the same kind as the ones in the first cage then too?

Thanks for making it clearer. I answer a lot of questions on here and I don't always have time to look stuff up from other posts.