New Panther owner / new member assistance with lighting & temp

[intune]

Hello all, seems you run across sutff like this great forum after you already made decisions/purchases, but anyway looking to get it right.

After some basic web searching / reading on Panthers I thought I was an educated buyer. So I went ahead and bought my set up and a few days later my Ambanja Panther (Few months old male I was told)

I have a glass 18x18x24 enclosure because living in Chicago I felt it would retain the heat much better in the winter months than a wide open screen set up. In my house where the cage resides the air temp is in the low/mid sixties.

After talking to the Local Exotic Reptile dealer which I was going to make my purchase from I bought the following (13W UVB 5.0 cfl, 50W incandescent basking lamp, small size under tank heater to try to get the temps a t the bottom of the cage up at least on part of it, waterfall, many plastic leaves, plants, vines, tree limbs, etc... and coconut husk bedding to retain moisture & help humidity levels)

Now with the full screen top and cold house air temps I am getting the enclosure to stay at around mid sixties at the bottom, 70F in the middle/upper and 50% humidity, my basking spot with the basking lamp is at 90-95F, and for night I use a Infrar heat lamp to keep the temp close to 70F.


I've had my new little Panther home now for 2 days. The reason I'm concerned is because on day one he seemed freaked out (as anyone put in a new home would be) but active and I saw him eat 2 - 3 crickets. He seemed to sleep as soon as I turned off the lights and turned on the infrared lamp. On day two in the morning I switch over to the standard lights and he walked around a little and drank a little water from the good misting I gave the vines/leaves. Since then though he seems to not be too active and sleepy. He has just been sitting up in a little corner with his eyes shut only opening them when I come by and try to get his attention.

After seeing this forum and reading some of the lighting talk I'm thinking my lighting set-up may be upsetting him? Maybe it's too bright? or too cold? Looks like most of you think the CFL bulbs are a BAD thing which I am using for the UVB light. Also my basking lamp is literally resting on the top of the screen mesh because any higher off the screen and the temp drops too much in the rest of the enclosure.

Do you think he keeps going to sleep because these lights are too bright and bothering his eyes?

What can I do and what should I get for lighiting & heat on theis size enclosure? (See pics below)


Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[hallenhe]

Hi, and welcome!

I wouldn't worry quite so much about heat. When I bought my panther years ago, I spoke with the breeder because I was in Michigan and unsure if I'd have to have supplemental heat sources, and she said it would be fine if the temperatures didn't get much below 60 - so he's had just ambient temperatures (60 the first couple years; 64 more recently) at night, and has been fine with it. I would leave off on the infrared lamp at night.

Some (not all) compact fluorescents have been shown to damage reptiles' eyes. This thread and the associated link go into the specifics, and you can see if your brand is on the "good" or "bad" list; if "bad" (or no data), a linear Reptisun 5.0 and an ordinary incandescent 60 W (if those can even be found any more!) for heat are the usual.

Have you been home all day observing your chameleon, or are you out during the day? - I ask because the chameleons I've had start getting active anywhere between 8 - 10 in the morning, and settle down sometime between 3 - 5, in the winter, and I hardly saw my first chameleon move the first month I had him, until I had a day off and could see that he was active during my work hours. Merely having the indoor lights on in the early morning and evening doesn't fool them; they are highly attuned to "real" daylight hours.

Substrate (like the coconut husk) can be ingested and cause impactions if the animal catches some together with a cricket or, for whatever reason, decided to munch on it. Panthers, veileds and the other larger species are usually kept without substrate. Live plants help maintain humidity better than fake plants, and can replace the substrate in that regard.

Waterfalls are another thing that's generally discouraged; few chameleons understand them, and they can be breeding grounds for bacteria (many chams do understand them to the extent of finding them a good place to drop their droppings, and crickets are good at drowning, given a chance). Misting the animal a couple times a day for five minutes or so with a hand-held sprayer, and having a drip system going through the day (can be as simple as a plastic tub with a pinhole in it, or you can buy ones with adjustable valves; I put it on the top of the cage and arrange so it drips in to one of the plant pots) is usually the best.

I'm not going to enter the Great Glass Enclosure Debate; I don't see why it wouldn't work for you, and you've invested a fair amount in the cage. When he gets bigger, he's going to want more room, and I haven't had trouble with screen and/or free-range in Michigan, where we have pretty similar weather and humidity.

This seems like I'm picking on a lot of things, and I'm not trying to attach you in any way. Your set-up looks very nice, and I wish you many happy years with your panther!

 

[intune]

Thanks for the quick reply. Never thought about the Chameleon using the waterfall for a bathroom. Guess I'll keep a close eye on that and change out the water a lot for preventative measures anyway. I've been feeding him crickets in a small Tupperware bowl that the crickets can not climb out of so no worries about them drowning.

I don't see the list you speak of in that link. Looking at the data posted I see only 2 brands tested? Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place? (mine anyway is an Exo-Terra 5.0 CFL if you know about what brands are good/bad)

What do you think of the 50W basking halogen sitting only an inch off the top screen? Would that possibly be too bright?

I've been home all day today and periodically looked in on him and even though he has moved his position a little here and there his eyes are always closed unless I make enough ruckus to cause him to be curious.


As for not using the infrared lamp,what do you think of at least a ceramic type (no light output then)? I really am not comfortable with low sixties in there overnight. (Maybe when I feel he is less fragile)

 

[Julirs]

Generally a 50w halogen would be way too hot for that size glass enclosure. Are you using a digital thermometer to make sure of temps?

 

[meaghan]

i would strongly, strongly, strongly suggest changing your bulb immediatley from the exo terra bulb to a reptisun 5.0 linear bulb. I have first hand experience with the exact same bulb and it blinded my young veiled cham. Since changing all my bulbs to the reptisun 5.0 LINEAR bulb i have had no troubles with any others chams.

 

[meaghan]

i would also strongly suggest entirely removing the fountain and the foam wall piece because the crickets will eat it and then that foam ends up in your chameleons stomach

 

[intune]

is there any reason I can't keep feeding the crickets in a small plastic tub like I am? I keeps them from free roaming and thus they can not eat, chew, drown in the fountain, etc.... So far I have seen the Chameleon eat a few out of the container so is there a reason to let them run wild? It seems much cleaner this way too as there are no dead soldiers laying around after putting the in there, just dump the container out and ready for next feeding.

I know maybe some will say he needs to "hunt" for them, but he will never need the skill as he will always be a captive pet.

Thoughts?

 

[pssh]

The water fall can drown him. It is also not clean enough unless you clean it with bleach every day. And even then it may not be clean enough. chameleons require a temp drop at night. By using a heat lamp or ceramic bulb at night you are not allowing his metabolism to slow down (a bad thing.)

Use a reptisun linear 5.0 or you could risk blinding him or burning him or doing other types of damage to his eyes. You can continue to use the feeding container, but try to make it nice a big so he can still hunt but the bugs can't get out.

 

[DJ Richey Rich]

OOO SNAP I lost the link I use it all the time on my home computer but my laptop dont got it saved wats the chameleon kitten page he needs to read like 20 times

 

[Chamster]

i am a new chameleon owner...i just bought him 3 days ago and i am so confused with all the lighting stuff. AVB and florescent and all that stuff... please someone just tell me which light i should have in the day and at night... please guy...

plain and simple... please. i heard 'reptisum 5.0' is a good thing.

 

[pssh]

Please do a search on the forums next time. You need a normal incandescent house bulb of appropriate wattage for the species you have and a linear UVB tube. The most recommended UVB tube is a reptisun 5.0. Make sure there is no glass or plastic between the chameleon and the UBV tube. Do not buy a coil bulb as those have been known to blind or burn chameleons.

these two lights should be on for approx. 12 hours a day and off for 12 hours a day. Try to keep the schedule the same or only change it according to the actual sun outside (winter months have shorter daylight periods, summer months have longer daylight periods.) You do not need a light at night unless your house gets really cold. I'm going to assume you have a veiled or a panther. Veilds can handle night temps as low as 50 (maybe even lower) and panthers can handle temps to about 55-60. If your house gets lower than that at night then you will need a space heater or a ceramic heat emitter bulb. They do require a temp drop though so make sure it does go down at night by about 10-15 degrees F from the daytime ambient temp.

 

[hallenhe]

is there any reason I can't keep feeding the crickets in a small plastic tub like I am? I keeps them from free roaming and thus they can not eat, chew, drown in the fountain, etc.... So far I have seen the Chameleon eat a few out of the container so is there a reason to let them run wild? It seems much cleaner this way too as there are no dead soldiers laying around after putting the in there, just dump the container out and ready for next feeding.

I know maybe some will say he needs to "hunt" for them, but he will never need the skill as he will always be a captive pet.

Thoughts?

Keeping them in a cup is fine; I do that, as do many others. It will generally prevent them getting into the waterfall, munching on things they shouldn't, etc. (if you're sure they can't get out of the cup). I would still be a bit suspicious of the waterfall; I do know of people who have successfully used them, so it's not impossible, but if you're committed to it, just be sure to keep on top of the hygiene.

 

[intune]

Thanks guys for all your help.

The water fall can drown him. It is also not clean enough unless you clean it with bleach every day. And even then it may not be clean enough.

The waterfall is no more than water running down rock. There is no "pool" at the bottom other than something as deep as what you might concider condensation from leaving a cold cup on your counter. I am taking the negative input about the waterfall seriously though. It just looks so nice it's hard for me to just give up on it.


I will look into getting a new lighting hood to house a 18" ReptiSun 5.0 tube. I cannot have the open screen top totally exposed because of my heat problem. With my light now resting right on the screen I am barley hanging on to 70F average around the enclosure. So I need to get another hood like I have to help keep some heat from just rising out so rapidly.

What is it that blinds the Chameleons? Bright visible light? or certain spectrums in the UVB? To my eyes my Halogen basking lamp is as bright or brighter than my 13W CFL UVB lamp.

I'm thinking of getting a larger undertank Exo-Terra "Rainforest" heater. Maybe that way I can lessen to wattage on the Halogen and also feel better about no light at night.

On a positive note he seems much more active today, but he did not eat any crickets yet today
Thanks again! you guys are great!

 

[pssh]

No heat pad, they need a temp gradient where lower is cooler. As for the whole blinding thing, check out this site, they did tests and posted findings. www.uvguide.co.uk

you can use the water fall if you clean it as often as I said with bleach and you rinse it extremely well. They are more of a pain in the butt than anything else. Use a space heater to warm up the room if you're having temp trouble, but chameleons can handle pretty low temps most of the time as long as they have a basking spot.

 

[intune]

OK so 60-63 at the bottom of the cage is OK? And 70 around the top with the basking spot around 90-100 (if he sits right under the light)?

I thought they generally liked 70-80 average temps. You are the experienced one offering assistance so I'll trust you if you agree my temps are OK.

 

[pssh]

If you could raise the ambient temp of the room to 65-68 it would be more ideal, though he could probably be kept at that temp. I have to keep mine at 65 for a month or two in the winter and have had no problems so far as long as the temp towards the top is around 70-75 (mine don't spend much time in the lower half at any temp) and basking is appropriate for the species. 90-100 is way too hot for a baby panther. Under 6-7 months he should be at a temp around 80-85 max. As an adult he can bask in temps around 85-90 just fine.

This is just what I have found okay for me, many members would suggest to raise the temps higher. I've never had any problems as long as ambient is more toward 65. If you can turn the heater up a tiny bit or move him to a warmer room I'm sure he'll be fine. If you're really worried, then use a space heater.

 

[intune]

Reading that link you posted leads me to believe the blinding is a UVB radiation problem not an intense light problem.

90-100 is way too hot for a baby panther. Under 6-7 months he should be at a temp around 80-85 max. As an adult he can bask in temps around 85-90 just fine.

Well that's the balance issue I'm having with the basking lamp. It has to be that hot & close to keep up the temps in the rest of the cage, so that's why I was going to get a bigger under tank heater. Maybe it would raise the average ambient temps 5-10 degrees and I could get a lower wattage basking lamp then to bring the basking spot down a few degrees.

It would take a LOT more furnace energy to raise the room (lower finished basement area) a constant 5-8 degrees warmer, and doing that would greatly upset the 1st & 2nd floor temps in the rest of the house which would become summer like. There is about a 10 degree gradient from the basement to the upper level which would leave me with upper 70's on the 2nd floor. Not ideal at all and very costly in Gas & Electric utility bills. 70 degrees in the bedrooms gives me lower 60's in the basement level. No getting around that. And I'm not sure a space heater would be more efficient than a low powered under tank heater. It would be much easier to dial in also using a temp control than trying to balance temps with a space heater safely. I would sleep uneasy knowing a glowing red space heater was on while I'm not home &/or sleeping.

I really value your advice and it's helped me feel much better about what environment I'm providing "Chub Chub" my little Panther.

 

[hallenhe]

I wouldn't worry too much about your temps. My chameleon is free-range in my living room. There are a few inches immediately under his light that reach the low nineties, and the eighties for another few inches, but he spends very little time in the warmth - probably only ~ 20 minutes a day, and the rest is at room temperature (64 at night to 69 during the day). I'd only worry that he's not warm enough if you see him refusing to leave the higher temperature regions.

 

[pssh]

His ambient temp is more of a night temp. I think 60 during the day is too cold, but 65-70 is fine. I suggest moving him to a warmer room. I thought his whole house was 60 all the time.

 

[Lil]

info on carpet chameleon care

I am in the process of getting carpet cham. Unfortunately she is going to be housed in a glass terrarium I do think my temp/lighting/humitidy are all in the ranges that I have been reading however that is for chams other than carpet chams. If anyone has any help I would appreciate it, the terrarium has 3 live plants and 2 artificial ones and cllimbing vines, one uvb light one plant light and a basking light we also have a night "moon"light if needed.

Thanks Lil