No more Jacksons for me

[brownie64]

I love these chams they are so gentle and sweet not too mention awesome. But my 18+ years of chameleon keeping just is no match for these guys. Who ever said Jacksons are a good first Cham wasn't thinking at all. First my male dies for no apparent reason that I could find just stopped eating??? Now his babies that were doing so good fat and sassy eating like pigs drinking good are now for no reason dropping like flies!!! And the really messed up part is they are real healthy looking other than the fact they are dead! I have 5 left two are acting a little sluggish, and aren't as active as they should be in my opinion they're probably next. The other three dare I say it look fantastic growing like a weed eating real good, and drinking well. But at this point I'll just be happy if I can just raise one to replace his dad. I'm treating them just like the adults other than keeping the hottest spot only at 75 degrees, and giving very little supplements until they get a little bigger I'm afraid they are too sensitive for them. So after these guys are gone here is hoping that will be years from now. I think I'm going to save up for a panther, or just go back to veiled, didn't have near as much problems then lot less high maintenance. When there neonates hatched you could see the runts you know the weak ones, and you knew they probably wouldn't make it. but the healthy looking ones were a breeze and done just great. The Jacksons you just don't know doing great one day dead the next. Hey if anyone has any ideas as to how to help these last remaining chams to survive I'm all ears. I feel like a novice at this whole thing. Why would they be doing so well and just die for no reason??????

 

[kinyonga]

So sorry to hear about all your trouble. I have wondered for years why people say Jacksons are easy...they aren't. I found the merus easier than the xanths.

Are you giving the babies calcium? How old are they now? I wish I knew why live born babies are harder than those hatched...but it's true. So there's something we haven't figured put yet. And it's true...they can look so healthy and just keep over.

Hope the last few survive now.

 

[leedragon]

I love these chams they are so gentle and sweet not too mention awesome. But my 18+ years of chameleon keeping just is no match for these guys. Who ever said Jacksons are a good first Cham wasn't thinking at all. First my male dies for no apparent reason that I could find just stopped eating??? Now his babies that were doing so good fat and sassy eating like pigs drinking good are now for no reason dropping like flies!!! And the really messed up part is they are real healthy looking other than the fact they are dead! I have 5 left two are acting a little sluggish, and aren't as active as they should be in my opinion they're probably next. The other three dare I say it look fantastic growing like a weed eating real good, and drinking well. But at this point I'll just be happy if I can just raise one to replace his dad. I'm treating them just like the adults other than keeping the hottest spot only at 75 degrees, and giving very little supplements until they get a little bigger I'm afraid they are too sensitive for them. So after these guys are gone here is hoping that will be years from now. I think I'm going to save up for a panther, or just go back to veiled, didn't have near as much problems then lot less high maintenance. When there neonates hatched you could see the runts you know the weak ones, and you knew they probably wouldn't make it. but the healthy looking ones were a breeze and done just great. The Jacksons you just don't know doing great one day dead the next. Hey if anyone has any ideas as to how to help these last remaining chams to survive I'm all ears. I feel like a novice at this whole thing. Why would they be doing so well and just die for no reason??????

can you fill the sking forhelp form?

 

[brownie64]

So sorry to hear about all your trouble. I have wondered for years why people say Jacksons are easy...they aren't. I found the merus easier than the xanths.

Are you giving the babies calcium? How old are they now? I wish I knew why live born babies are harder than those hatched...but it's true. So there's something we haven't figured put yet. And it's true...they can look so healthy and just keep over.

Hope the last few survive now.

I've gave them very little calcium because they are so small, and the way these guys are so sensitive to the stuff I'm a little pre apprehensive. All together I would say about three times after I started feeding them crickets two weeks ago.

I too wish I knew the secret to their survival, it could be something real simple just got to figure it out.
They are almost three months old now.

 

[Miss Lily]

The 'critical' time for Jax babies is usually around 4-5 months of age. They can drop dead for seemingly no reason. I got my baby at just 7 weeks old (he weighed 2g!) and I didn't relax until he hit that magic 5 months. Every morning I expected to come down and find him dead as I had read so much about how the babies don't do that well. I supplemented him thus - plain calcium once per week, vitamins without D3 once per week and vitamins WITH D3 just once every 6 weeks. I have followed the same supplement schedule for my new baby and, although I got this one a bit older, he is doing really well so far (touch wood).

 

[Bush baby]

There's a common misconception around here that Jackson's are sensitive to ALL supplements, when in fact they are ONLY sensitive to multi-vitamin supplementation and calcium WITH d3.

Plain calcium is water soluble, so chameleons cannot overdose on it. Any excess calcium will simply pass out in their urates, which is why it is impotent to make sure your cham, especially Jackson's, are well hydrated.

 

[brownie64]

can you fill the sking forhelp form?

My chameleons are male Jacksons about three months old, and they have been with me since birth.

I handle them as little as possible.

Right now I am feeding them 1/8 inch crickets, about 30- 40 in the morning, and I try to feed them more in the afternoon but make sure I give them enough time to digest the crickets before bed. I gut load them with Flukers dry mix, and my own mix of collard greens, mustard greens, turnip greens, bok choy, butternut squash, oranges, bee pollen, and crushed almonds, and some carrots.

I'm have used Repti calcium brand without D3 about three times.

I have a Mist King system it is set to go off at 9:00am, 12:00 noon, 3:00pm, and 6:00pm for 1 minute 45 seconds each time. And yes I see them drink.

There feces is dark brown about the size of a fruit fly, and the urates are hard to see, but I do see some white. and they poop a lot. Have not been tested for parasites, but I'm in the process of getting my own microscope to do fecal exams on a regular basis.

There sire did just die for reasons unknown. Could be a history of bacterial parasites?

My enclosure is a 55 gallon tank with a large screened in enclosure on the top of that. I use a Cpap machine to pump air through a pvc pipe at the bottom of the tank which keeps the air from becoming stagnant, and causing mold. It also pushes moisture from the substrate which in turn keeps the humidity at a more stable consistency. So I guess you would call it a combo. The dimensions are 4 feet long divided into mom on one side, babies on the other. it is about 1 and 1/2 feet wide, and about 5 feet high.

I have a 10.0 Reptisun CFL UVB, a 6500 40 watt CFL, and a 40 watt incandescent bulb for heat that isn't turned on at the time for fear of overheating them. They stay on from 8:00am in the morning until 8:00pm that night.

My temps on the babies side are 73 -75 basking or top, 70-72 in the middle, and 64-68 at the bottom. I check with an infrared heat gun.

My humidity levels are 65-90% they average around 75-80%. I check with a digital hydrometer. I keep it that way as stated earlier with mistings, real plants, and a substrate with blown air.

I'm using Pothos, and umbrella plants. All checked safe on the safe plant list.

My enclosure is located at the back of our dining room it only sees traffic when we eat, and they don't seem to mind. Even though mom does give me the stink eye every now and then like she is next on the menu or something. The nearest vent is about 8 feet away, and the top of the enclosure is about 6 feet off the ground.

I live in Indiana U.S.A. I have cold winters.

I hope this helps you out.

 

[Bush baby]

Two things pop out at me:

You've only dusted with plain calcium (Repti-Calcium) only 3 times in the 3 months they've been alive? That could be the main cause right there, you are supposed to lightly dust with plain calcium at every feeding, or at the very minimum, 3-4 times per week.

Also, the Flukers gut loads are garbage; trash them…..although your other gut load items should make up for the lack of nutrients the Flukers gut load doesn't provide.

 

[brownie64]

Two things pop out at me:

You've only dusted with plain calcium (Repti-Calcium) only 3 times in the 3 months they've been alive? That could be the main cause right there, you are supposed to lightly dust with plain calcium at every feeding, or at the very minimum, 3-4 times per week.

Also, the Flukers gut loads are garbage; trash them…..although your other gut load items should make up for the lack of nutrients the Flukers gut load doesn't provide.

I'll start with calcium lightly at every other feeding or at least once a day. Do you think I should stay away from multivitamin and D3 for now until, or if they get older?

 

[Action Jackson]

I'll chime in here. I've had probably about 15 clutches of Jackson's over the years and 6 of those in the last two. In my experience the most important thing is the health and size of the female. The larger the female the healthier the clutch. I just had a Meru have a clutch of 11 and only three were viable and I will be surprised if the three make it. The mother was in obvious distress for at least a week before birth. This was her first clutch. Although I'm bummed I know she was healthy and that's just the way it goes some times. This was the worst clutch I've had though.

The female I had have babies before her had 11 fantastic babies all healthy and beautiful.

There seems to usually be a runt or two in most clutches.

I am very careful to not overfeed when they are young. They can over eat and too many feeders in the cage seems to stress them out. I don't use any multivitamins. I usually wait a couple weeks before I start using calcium with no D3 and then just once or twice a week. I also use no calcium with d3.

IMO temp drops are important to raising healthy babies. My babies sometimes see temps into the 50's with no problems.

Raising chameleons that give live birth is nowhere near as easy as raising babies the come out of an egg imo. Babies come out of the egg when they are ready. Sometimes babies from live bearers don't come out at the perfect time, too early, too late, when it's too hot, when it's too cold, when the mother is stressed and so on.

It sucks when babies die but that's just the way mother nature works sometimes.

 

[Bush baby]

I'll start with calcium lightly at every other feeding or at least once a day. Do you think I should stay away from multivitamin and D3 for now until, or if they get older?

I forgot you're feeding multiple times a day; dust with plain calcium once a day, or 3-4 times per week should do it.

The vitamin/D3 supplementation is tricky with Jacksons; especially babies, who are super sensitive to everything.

If i were you, just to be on the safe side i would get myself a really good gut load like Cricket Crack or Repasy bug burger, or look at sandrachameleons blogs and make your own, in order to supply your babies with vitamins, as again, they are super sensitive to vitamin supplementation. As far as getting them D3; is it possible you could take them outside for a few hours a day so they can get some natural sunlight? If you could, that would eliminate the headache of supplying them with D3, as they'd make their own, and there would be no worry of them overdosing on it.

Just my opinion on the matter.

Other's may have other suggestions...

 

[CarlC]

I'm with Craig on the temperature drop. Livebearers are livebearers because the environment they come from isn't suitable for reproduction via egg in the ground. The area's livebearers come from see extreme's that would kill most egg laying species in short order.

From what I have learned and experienced over the years is daytime highs don't matter nearly as much as the night time drop. A minimum of a 10 degree drop is mandatory not only for the gravid female but also for the long term health of the babies. The three species of livebearer babies I have at the moment have seen temps as low as 51f and highs of 93f. Gravid females are exposed to the same varied conditions. Don't be afraid of low temps.

I offer calcium at almost every feeding. On my days off from work I feed 3-4 times a day. Days I work the babies only get fed once. No vitamins are ever offered to the adults or babies. I make my own gut load.

Offer water. Lots and lots of water! Livebearers come from area's that are very moist even in the dry season. Livebearers are found on the eastern, north eastern and south eastern slopes of mountains in East Africa. This is because moist winds from the Indian Ocean and Mozambique Channel condense as they hit the easterly sides of these tall mountains. As the air currents rise higher and higher they encounter cool temperatures which condense's the air. The more dense the air when hitting the cooler air the more water is dropped. Dew is dripping off of vegetation every morning. Whole forests are sustained on just the amount of dew each day.

My mist system runs for a minimum of 20 minutes every four hours even at night. If you are seeing your animals drink they are being kept to dry in my opinion. As far as I know chameleons don't have the ability to absorb water through their skin. They are able to pull moisture from the air they are breathing though so if they have moist air around them they will drink very little.

Carl

 

[Rango3d]

Here is a very interesting fact.
Multi vitamins are synthetic. Synthetic anything takes time of multiple doses to build up in your body for them to work. It doesn't matter if your a human or animal.
1 dose every month does absolutely nothing. You also need very strong and healthy kidneys for you to process them.
Chameleons don't have strong kidneys at all. So people who give vitamins are in away poisoning the chameleons.

Multi vitamins have a higher death rate then some illegal drugs including steroids. And that's for humans.

Don't take my word for it.
Research it yourself.
A cricket that's been cut loaded good does more them multivitamin.
Just my opinion.

 

[Bush baby]

That's why i rarely give multivitamins to my chams; and focus more on the gut load aspect of supplementation.

 

[SilverWolf]

Here is a very interesting fact.
Multi vitamins are synthetic. Synthetic anything takes time of multiple doses to build up in your body for them to work. It doesn't matter if your a human or animal.
1 dose every month does absolutely nothing. You also need very strong and healthy kidneys for you to process them.
Chameleons don't have strong kidneys at all. So people who give vitamins are in away poisoning the chameleons.

Multi vitamins have a higher death rate then some illegal drugs including steroids. And that's for humans.

Don't take my word for it.
Research it yourself.
A cricket that's been cut loaded good does more them multivitamin.
Just my opinion.

Interesting. I'm going to list my schedule for supplementation, and state what I use for supplementation. Keep in mind, I do gut load the crickets with mashed up apples, carrots, collard greens, green peppers and butternut squash, all in one frozen cube (I have several cubes) that I prepare myself.

Twice a week (every Monday and Friday) dust crickets with calcium, no D3. The brand I use is Exo Terra.

Again, Exo Terra, Multi vitamins once every month (around the 20th of every month). Should I just stop all together with the multi vitamin?

Contents of Calcium:
Moisture(max)…12.0%
Calcium (min)…35.0%
Calcium (max)…37.00%
Salt (min)….0.06%
Salt (max)…0.07%
Potassium (min)….0.04%
Magnesium(min)…0.03%
Sulfur (min)…0.04%
Iron (min)…240 ppm
Zinc (min)….9pm
Manganese(min) 5 ppm
Copper (min)…2 ppm

Contents of Multi Vitamin: (As of Guaranteed Analysis, North America)
Crude Protein (min)…14.0%
Crude Fat (min)…1.2%
Crude Fiber (max)….8.0%
Moisture (max)…12.0%
Ash (max)…9.0%
Calcium (min)…4.4%
Calcium(max)…4.6%
Salt (max)….0.00275%
Potassium (min)….0.0033%
Sulfur (min)…..0.011%
Magnesium…2ppm
Iron…77ppm
Copper….2.5ppm
Zinc…6.5ppm
Iodine…0.75ppm
Manganese…6.5ppm
Choline…81.44 mg/lb
Menadione…0.907 mg/lb
Biotin…0.004 mg/lb
Inositol…4.989 mg/lb
Beta Carotene…4.082
Vitamin D3….9.979 IU/lb
Vitamin E….45.3 IU/lb

I'm not going to bother listing the "EU ingredients, typical analysis or vitamin statement" unless you would like me to.

 

[kinyonga]

For what it's worth....why do people think it's only necessary to dust insects once in a while? How once every few feedings, etc instead of lightly every time they feed or almost every time??? Don't the insects always have the same poor ratio of calcium to phosphorous?? If so, why do we not dust every time??
As long as your insects don't look like ghosts IMHO it should not be able to build up in the system. If I'm wrong I wish someone would show me the study done showing it.

The supplements you have to be careful of....the ones that affect the organs when they are given too often are vitamin A and D3....they are fat soluble and when coming from supplements they can build up. Read the part under non infectious diseases...starting with paragraph two...
http://www.seavs.com/lizards/chameleons/#!

Why are you using a 10 UVB? I've never used one on any of my chameleons...I just use 5.0's. Do they have lots of cover/greenery to hide in when they want to get out of it?


Just my own opinions...

 

[Bush baby]

Interesting. I'm going to list my schedule for supplementation, after I say what I use for supplementation. Keep in mind, I do gut load the crickets with mashed up apples, carrots, collard greens, green peppers and butternut squash, all in one frozen cube (I have several cubes) that I prepare myself.

Twice a week (every Monday and Friday) dust crickets with calcium, no D3. The brand I use is Exo Terra.

Again, Exo Terra, Multi vitamins once every month (around the 20th of every month). Should I just stop all together with the multi vitamin?

With Jacksons, multi-vitamin supplements seem to do more harm than good in my opinion. Just focus on a good gut loading regiment for vitamins, and as long as the weather is favorable, rely on the sun for D3.

 

[Rango3d]

Calcium is different then multi vitamins.
Calcium is not normally synthetic. Crushed oyster shells,etc etc.
Because they are indoors most of the time they need calcium help for their bones.

Has anybody found the nutritional info on the foods that we gut load are crickets with?
Now compare it to vitamins.
Isn't it pretty much all the same stuff and in bigger doses?
So why do they need more of it but in a synthetic form?

 

[SilverWolf]

Calcium is different then multi vitamins.
Calcium is not normally synthetic. Crushed oyster shells,etc etc.
Because they are indoors most of the time they need calcium help for their bones.

Has anybody found the nutritional info on the foods that we gut load are crickets with?
Now compare it to vitamins.
Isn't it pretty much all the same stuff and in bigger doses?
So why do they need more of it but in a synthetic form?

So you're arguing that the only supplementation needed, for any chameleon, is calcium? Not challenging, just asking.

 

[SilverWolf]

With Jacksons, multi-vitamin supplements seem to do more harm than good in my opinion. Just focus on a good gut loading regiment for vitamins, and as long as the weather is favorable, rely in the sun for D3.

Alright I'll stop all together with the multivitamins. Why does this topic have to be controversial? Why can there not just be one supreme way to do everything?

I have a question. Does a jackson, or any chameleon, need ANY supplementation at ALL if there feeders are gut loaded?