Not recovering

[cowchick]

I have been speaking with a few members on here via MSN, and was suggested perhaps I should put this up on here as a post!

History:
- 17 month old female veiled
- When purchased in June, was housed in 18X18X24" exoterra with male 4 months older (male over 1 foot long), with sand bedding, fed 6 superworms per day (between two chams) dusted in Ca D3 thrown directly on sand bottom, misted once per day and dripped only 1 hour per day
- Found this forum just over month ago, separated into their own enclosures (larger), removed sand bedding, adding plants, started mising more often and dripping into real plants, also started showering once per week (plants used are various tropicals including pothos & umbrella)
- ONe month ago she laid 77 eggs which turned out to be infertile, she started eating crickets for first time EVER one week after clutch laid..but now won't eat them, she ate a few silkies for first time ever, but now won't eat them either or superworms

Problem now:
- will not eat, superdehydrated, yet licking like crazy when misted every hour or so
- She's in a 3 foot flexarium, with brand new 18" UVB bulb & new heat bulb
- Basking temp in low 90's, humidity ranges between 65-75 (my aquarium room), she does move into basking areas regularly, but also moves out of it as well
- She's very active and usually a green colour except when I handle her...she sometimes goes brown when I remove her which is normal I realize
- Also...please note I put in a new plant for her three days ago...as I couldn't find an appropriate pothos or umbrella to fit her room...can you tell me if this is ok? If not I will go back to the others, but this is really rigid and she likes it!

Pics of her last night when being handled (she hates pictures and turns brown)...note the light colouration on her underside and the white lump on her forehead

(you will note I put in superworms and silkies last night in a cup...she won't cup feed and was never trained to cup feed so I gave her a chance last night...to no avail)
Here's a vid of her last night...look at the white lump on her forehead and jaw....calcium deposits?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22y0SNGjHwU

Here are pics of her today...look at her feet

She won't eat ANYTHING. Has never had a solid eating program since she laid that clutch less than two months after I got her. She has never been to a vet...I'm waiting and hoping for an opening tomorrow. She loves the shower and drinks WAY too much, but over dehydrated.

Her program now...crickets dusted with Ca D3 few times per week, other times Ca. Crickets eat fluker's orange, sweet potato, carrots, potato. Scooped into a cup onto a gutload I got from Will Hayward for a day prior, then put in her cage...She won't touch them. I'm trying to cup feed some and let her hunt others...no luck. Won't eat ANYTHING AT ALL!

Please help!

 

[cowchick]

Please note...I am awaiting to get into the vets and am showering her in warm water and she is HEAVILY drinking! Her feces has white in it, but not a lot of brown since she's not really eating.

 

[ChromaChameleons]

try not using a clear transparent cup when cup feeding . It can confuse the cham. Try a solid colour, ( white) container.

 

[cowchick]

Ok, I will try that! I'm just starting her onto it, so didn't know what best to do. My youngster eats out of a clear cup cause he can see them in there and hops right in...but I'll try white instead!

I gave her some of that flukers repti-aid...going to see if that will stimulate her to start eating!

 

[ChromaChameleons]

If your cham does not have an issue with transparent cups , then they are fine, but many times chams will throw their tongue at the side of the container and can bruise their tongues. It also can cause them to become confused and they might then avoid the cup altogether.

 

[cowchick]

Anybody into thoughts on getting a reptile to eat? What am I missing? Why would she be having such a hard go recovering from the clutch?

 

[Kent67]

She seems to have fluid swelling her feet and ankles which is very troubling. A bloodtest will tell you what you need to know, and should be done soon.

 

[ChromaChameleons]

i dont see the swelling limbs because i dont know Veileds that well, but if that is the case , it could be signs of edema, which is often caused by over supplementation.
THe puzzle is that the urates are still white , indicating good kidney function.
If this is edema, then the white urates suggest that the kidneys are not too badly effected.


Good eyes Hairfarm.....

 

[kinyonga]

She looks like she is in trouble. She definitely needs to see a vet. We can only speculate and state the obvious.

The swollen toes need attention IMHO and the excessive drinking but somewhat dehydrated look to her would make me wonder if she has organ damage.
If you have been giving her D3 as often as you describe, it could be that it has caused some damage. It concerns me that she was kept on sand and fed on the sand too....did she poop well when you first got her?

 

[cowchick]

Thanks guys...I didn't get home from work till too late today and they were fairly busy, but tomorrow I'm told is good! I'm still syringing her...and she's not licking as crazy, but she doesn't seem as active either!

She always pooped normally, just not as much poop lately cause she's not eating. She won't touch a silkworm in front of her She's getting daily warm showers, lots of misting and repti-aid syringed and she's actually swallowing it, so that's a good thing. But her white spots that appear to be calcium deposits are getting larger. I think her organs are shutting down like her beau's did...the vet said I was doing everything right, but she had caused a great deal of damage that seemed to be irreversible to him...so hopefully I can get her to rebound!

 

[Prism Chameleons]

I noticed you have your basking light sitting on top of your reptarium. Does she walk upside down on the top of the cage? Her underside suspiciously looks like burns to me. If so, she needs to see a vet right away for burn ointment and antibiotics.

If you can, remove the basking light from sitting directly on top of the cage and either add a clamp or hang it an appropriate distance from the ceiling that will allow the proper heating temperatures for basking.

 

[cowchick]

Thanks guys.

Prism...no she doesn't ever climb on the mesh, she's not a fan of it to be honest. Probably because she was housed in a tiny Exoterra most of her life! So what I do is alter the height of her vines so the temp is at the right level! It's optimum around 90...and she climbs away from it at times to be in different temp!

 

[cowchick]

oh...and forgot to mention.

Just as I suspected...she seems pretty far gone now. Her belly was all bloated last night, and the repti-aid was found all over the plants...not in an overly stinky form, so it appears as if she puked it all up. She hasn't defacated in a few days. I found her on the bottom of the cage this morning...barely any strength when put on her vine. When I put her on she closes her eyes and flails her legs as if she's swimming and I actually have to place her feet on a vine to get some heat She's going through same thing Shrek did! I'm so angry right now at myself for buying these from this lady...as the vet said they were so far gone by the time I got them. This time I may have a necropsy done if I can afford it, as I don't think she's gonna make it!

 

[Kosmo]

I wouldn’t be angry at yourself for buying these animals. If the worst happens and she passes away you can take comfort in the fact you gave it a hell of a shot. As far as I’m concerned it’s worth the money to try and save an animal. In my opinion you buying her was the best thing that anyone could have done for her, you gave her a chance and did everything you could (and you’re still trying I might add). I know we’re all pulling for her and we’ll keep giving suggestions. All I’ve got to say is excellent work and don’t beat yourself up, you’re doing a great job.

 

[PardalisGirl]

Not recovering.......

The vet and a blood panel is the most important thing. Her lower limbs are indeed swollen. That and the amount of drinking does suggest organ failure due to oversupplementation. She probably had the issue for a very long time. Laying that huge clutch of eggs then sent her over the edge. I would not worry about trying to get her to eat. If her kidneys or liver are shutting down feeding her will only overload them more. They can't process the materials released during digestion. Toxins will build up even more than they are now. Wait for the vet visit. There are drugs that can be injected to help clean out and support the organs if this has not advanced too far. Let us know how the vet visit goes. Your girl is in my prayers

 

[SierraNevada]

Cowchick.... don't give up. I've had reptiles at the brink of death and they recovered. I have a very sick snake that the vet said wouldn't last a few days...they just gave me the syr/meds and wished me good luck. He was 5 inches long, infected with mites and dehydrated to near death. 14 years later he is 3 feet long and healthy as can be.

Don't give up hope.

 

[stevereecy]

I have been speaking with a few members on here via MSN, and was suggested perhaps I should put this up on here as a post!

History:
- 17 month old female veiled
- When purchased in June, was housed in 18X18X24" exoterra with male 4 months older (male over 1 foot long), with sand bedding, fed 6 superworms per day (between two chams) dusted in Ca D3 thrown directly on sand bottom, misted once per day and dripped only 1 hour per day
- Found this forum just over month ago, separated into their own enclosures (larger), removed sand bedding, adding plants, started mising more often and dripping into real plants, also started showering once per week (plants used are various tropicals including pothos & umbrella)
- ONe month ago she laid 77 eggs which turned out to be infertile, she started eating crickets for first time EVER one week after clutch laid..but now won't eat them, she ate a few silkies for first time ever, but now won't eat them either or superworms

Problem now:
- will not eat, superdehydrated, yet licking like crazy when misted every hour or so
- She's in a 3 foot flexarium, with brand new 18" UVB bulb & new heat bulb
- Basking temp in low 90's, humidity ranges between 65-75 (my aquarium room), she does move into basking areas regularly, but also moves out of it as well
- She's very active and usually a green colour except when I handle her...she sometimes goes brown when I remove her which is normal I realize
- Also...please note I put in a new plant for her three days ago...as I couldn't find an appropriate pothos or umbrella to fit her room...can you tell me if this is ok? If not I will go back to the others, but this is really rigid and she likes it!

Pics of her last night when being handled (she hates pictures and turns brown)...note the light colouration on her underside and the white lump on her forehead

(you will note I put in superworms and silkies last night in a cup...she won't cup feed and was never trained to cup feed so I gave her a chance last night...to no avail)
Here's a vid of her last night...look at the white lump on her forehead and jaw....calcium deposits?

She won't eat ANYTHING. Has never had a solid eating program since she laid that clutch less than two months after I got her. She has never been to a vet...I'm waiting and hoping for an opening tomorrow. She loves the shower and drinks WAY too much, but over dehydrated.

Her program now...crickets dusted with Ca D3 few times per week, other times Ca. Crickets eat fluker's orange, sweet potato, carrots, potato. Scooped into a cup onto a gutload I got from Will Hayward for a day prior, then put in her cage...She won't touch them. I'm trying to cup feed some and let her hunt others...no luck. Won't eat ANYTHING AT ALL!

Please help!

I recently lost a female veiled to the same symptoms. By the time I had narrowed down alternatives, it was too late. She might have a stomach infection which could be killing her appetitie, but I'm willing to bet that it is mechanical problems with her tongue or her jaw. Might also explain why she "drinks like mad" but doesn't appear hydrated...perhaps her jaw or tongue isn't as efficient at water intake, so she's constantly thirsty, and/or trying to fill her belly to cover her hunger.

She looks, and sounds, like she might be over supplemented. I don't know if edema could arrest the function of the jaw. But it seems like there is something a little funny looking about her jaws too. Does she gape at you? Have you tried force feeding her? FWIW, force feeding can break jaws, but that only happens if they are undersupplemented.

I think she either sprung her tongue, or hurt her jaw. If the tongue is the only problem, you'd probably still see her trying to eat. Force feeding is a tricky business because if the jaw is bad, it can only make things worse.

Do these things: Put the worms on a flat plate so she can eat them even if the tongue isn't working (assuming her jaw does). And let us know about what jaw or tongue function you've observed lately.

Steve

 

[cowchick]

Thanks everyone. I'll make this short and sweet. Have consulted with vet and at this point the only thing that can be done is I.V. I have done everything as directed by them in past few days, and she's so shrivelled up that even bloodwork won't help. We can't test for parasites cause she hasn't passed feces in over a week now. She smells rotten, her belly's all bloated. She can't hold her self on a vine, barely opens her eyes. For past two days she's been flailing legs as if she's learning to swim. She's in a lot of pain and I've done everything I can to save her. The vet can't comment without all test results, but through discussion it has been determined that she was too far gone to do anything for.

Not sure what came first...chicken or the egg....but contributing factors for both of these two for their entire life were...sole diet of superworms dusted with D3 everyday, fed on sand bedding, housed together in small glass aquarium, dripped for only an hour and misted once per day, sold to me as 'bonded pair' but it turns out she was gravid and stressed. She was never taken to vets, never treated for parasites...I think both of them died from parasites and organ shut down, and vet believes so as well.

Either way, I followed all vets directions and to no avail. Needless to say, I will never purchase adults again in such distress to try to save them, I did what I could do. Thankfully all you guys have taught me a lot and I unfortunately learned the hardway. My new babies that are set for arrival at the end of the month, along with my new veiled male Donkey are set to go to vets on regular intervals.

Please advise me the first age and how often you take your chams to the vets, and the typical routine. Thank you. R.I.P. Fiona

 

[Julirs]

Sorry to hear of the females fate. Everything is a learning experience. Good luck with your new babies.

 

[Vibrant Chameleons]

Sorry to hear that Steph. You did all you could do.