odd color change and sunken eyes w/ pics

[ayiaskepi]

I had posted something the other day about my cham's eyes beginning to sink suddenly. I only received one reply, so I am hoping these pics will help others offer some advice. In addition to the eyes, his color has totally changed. It is becoming very pale/light like it does when he goes to sleep. Though it looks nice, he is always green as a base color. Is there something possibly wrong?

 

[Doug7025]

Maybe dehydrated?

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

It could be any number of things, from respiratory infection to mild dehydration to kidney probs.

With him maintaining the stress coloration and the sinkening of the eyes I would strongly recommend you get him to the vet ASAP.

I would ask you to answer a bunch of husbandry questions, check his throat for bubbles, and ask what his urates look like, but IMHO I wouldn't want to give you the impression that a few minor adjustments could help you cham. The high stress coloration and sunken eyes, in my opinion, calls for a vet visit.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Maybe dehydrated?

It's a possibility. If he is that dehydrated you would be able to tell by his urates. What do his urates look like?

Also, when you post and someone answers you, you should respond. In your post the other day someone suggested he may be dehydrated. You could have responded to that and kept your original post going.

 

[ayiaskepi]

His urates are not completely white, but have a little yellow/orange in them. He did poop out a circular weird looking thing, but I passed it off as a strangely shaped sperm plug. If it helps, every time the mister goes on, he goes back to his normal coloration.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

His urates are not completely white, but have a little yellow/orange in them. He did poop out a circular weird looking thing, but I passed it off as a strangely shaped sperm plug. If it helps, every time the mister goes on, he goes back to his normal coloration.

Hmmm. In that case it is possible your temps are too high and the coloration and sunken eyes show prolonged heat stress. Just a thought. Not really even an opinion. I guess it would be best to have you answer the following questions.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
Location - Where are you geographically located?

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

 

[Chameleon Company]

With him maintaining the stress coloration and the sinkening of the eyes I would strongly recommend you get him to the vet ASAP.

If it helps, every time the mister goes on, he goes back to his normal coloration.

Could be a lot of things, and I have to agree with Gesang's impression that something could be very wrong, although my experience is that 50% of the vets out here will take your money in return for no tangible help. Not they aren't trying, they just lack chameleon experience.

I am very anti-mister, unless its effect can be better characterized as a dripper, and from what little can be gleaned here, if your mister does not produce a 20 minute drip-drink opportunity, would add a dripper that satisfies that definition. A true "mister" ain't worth a hill-of-beans to a chameleon. They are rained on by Mama Nature, not misted. Otherwise, bright colors and slightly sunken eyes are sure stress signs. Its just a matter of trying to figure it out before he loses the battle. Good luck.

 

[ayiaskepi]

Thank you so much for the posts. I have been unable to reply until now. Unfortunately the only vet in the area who is experienced to see chams (and who sees them at all) is not in until tomorrow and is booked up for a couple weeks. They said I could come tomorrow morning (early) and hope that she can see me. Today my cham looks horrible. He is closing his eyes the majority of the time and just looks downright BAD. I put him in the shower for a good half hour to kick up the humidity,etc.

In response to the mister idea - his mister comes on 3-4 times a day and for 15 minutes at a time (except for one of the sessions which is ten minutes). I also had a dripper set up. That just broke a few days ago and I am in the process of getting/making another.

I do have his enclosure in a screened in porch, but I am able to regulate the temps enough to control overheating. I have seen his basking spot hit 100, but I turn off the lamp for a couple hours. The temps always have been controlled and he usually just goes into the "forest" or somewhere else if he is too hot.

By the way, this may seem like a stupid question but would it help if I gave him some time in the direct sun?? What else, if anything can I do?

I will try to respond in detail to the husbandry questions later. Right now I am rushed. Quickly though - he is a male panther (ambilobe) appx. 16 months old. His enclosure is 4'x2'x2' and is an all screen aluminum. I have quite a few live plants in their, a repti sun 5.0, a rockin drainage system, etc. He has never shown any type of signs of stress, illness, etc. His urates recently began to look a bit "goopy" (i cannot think of a different word), but that was not constant either.

Any help is still help, THANK YOU>>

 

[jannb]

If he were mine, I'd get him in out of that heat and have him at that vet first thing in the morning.

 

[ayiaskepi]

I banged this out quick anyway.


Cage Info:
Cage Type - aluminum 4x2x2
Lighting - repti glo 5.0 on 1/2 hour after heat for 12 hrs. Incandescent spot light.
Temperature -temps range from 80-85(close to bottom) -95ish (just under basking spot). I use a digital thermometer (with probe) and a digital thermometer with hygrometer (with probe).
Humidity - levels range from 50-85% depending on time of day and where in the cage I am measuring. Humidity maintained by automated mister.
Plants - umbrella plant, pothos, hibiscus, etc.
Placement - Cage is in screened in porch when the weather permits and inside the rest of the year. The cage is around 6'5 at highest point.
Location - South Carolina

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Ambilobe Panther Male 16 months old.
Handling - very rarely is he handled.
Feeding - He eats crickets, super worms, and dubias. He eats around 8 insects every other day (depending on the type it could be less). The feeders are gutloaded with greens, oats, fruits, cereal, and CRICKET CRACK.
Supplements - I alternate feedings with Rep-Cal Calcium with D3 and Miner-All O. I use Rep-Cal multivitamins once a month.
Watering - Dripper and automated mister. Mister is on 4 times a day (I was wrong on last post) and 10-15 minutes each time. The dripper is filled once daily and let go until dry. It is a "little dripper", but broke. Do not always see him drink. Never really did, but he obviously was because his urates showed it.
Fecal Description - Recently he has been dropping gooey urates with a ting of rust color and yellow. His poop always looked normal, but recently he dropped what looked like a circular, spongy, sperm plug. Never had fecal.
History - Nothing abnormal
Reply With Quote

 

[ayiaskepi]

NO heat at all??

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Highest basking temp for a panther would be about 85 degrees, with ambient cage temp in the mid 70s. I'm afraid it looks like he's been too hot. No, do not put him in direct sunlight. He should be able to get lower in his cage to a shaded area with temps in the mid 70s when he wants to. And get up to the basking spot of 80 to 85 degress when he wants to. If he is kept too hot even hydration won't help him.

Cool him down asap and, yes, I would get him to a vet. Although if his problem is prolonged heat stress I'm not sure what a vet can do other than subcutaneous fluids, and something similar to gatorade that would restore electrolytes.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

I banged this out quick anyway.


Temperature -temps range from 80-85(close to bottom) -95ish (just under basking spot). I use a digital thermometer (with probe) and a digital thermometer with hygrometer (with probe).
Humidity - levels range from 50-85% depending on time of day and where in the cage I am measuring. Humidity maintained by automated mister.
Plants - umbrella plant, pothos, hibiscus, etc.
Placement - Cage is in screened in porch when the weather permits and inside the rest of the year. The cage is around 6'5 at highest point.
Location - South Carolina

My last post uploaded the same time you posted this. It does look like prolonged heat stress is the problem. Get him into a cooler area now. Hopefully you won't lose him. He may need Pedialyte mixed with water, 1/2 and 1/2, to rehydrate and restore electrolytes.

What I would do today is get pedialyte at the store (in the baby food department). Mix some with water, 1/2 and 1/2, put it in a needleless syringe (which you can purchase at the grocery store pharmacy when you get the pedialyte). The 1 milileter size syringe. Carefully give him several syringes of that over a several hour period today. Orally, by getting him to gape. Place him in the shower on a plant and give him a warm shower for at least 30 minutes. Monitor him closely while he is in the shower.

Get him to the vet tomorrow if you can. Be sure to tell the vet about the temperatures and the possibility of heat stress.

I would repeat the showers and pedialyte. It is possible that he may recover quickly with lowered temps and by restoring hydration and electrolytes. But I don't think you have any time to spare.

 

[ayiaskepi]

THANKS. I am leaving now to get some. He is out of the heat. I hope the vet will see me tomorrow. Chances are she will not. I am taking a huge chance. Thanks again.

 

[chambabysitter1]

THANKS. I am leaving now to get some. He is out of the heat. I hope the vet will see me tomorrow. Chances are she will not. I am taking a huge chance. Thanks again.

Why is that? Why would it be a big chance to take a sick animal to the vet? Sounds more like an obligation to me.

Be sure to find a solid herp vet, many do not know chameleons well.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/veterinarian-resources-67/

 

[pssh]

I'm concerned about your uvb source. You said it was a reptisun? or a reptiglo?

 

[kinyonga]

Are you saying that the urates are different in texture or color or both lately?
His head pads are not bad...combined with the eyes being sunken in, I wonder if its something besides dehydration. You really need a good vet to check things out IMHO.

 

[ayiaskepi]

I am taking a "chance" because I am just showing up and hoping she will see me. She is booked for two weeks they said. There is no other vet in the area that sees "exotic animals". I am fully aware of the obligation. You obviously did not understand my post.

He is refusing to open his mouth, even with me "coaching" him along. Any tips?

 

[ayiaskepi]

The urates have been gooey in texture, though I did not physically touch them, and the color has been mixed with a rust/yellow color.

My UVB source is fine. It is a repti-sun 5.0. In over ten years of keeping herps, including chams, this has always worked great. Repti-glow, however, is bad news.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

I am taking a "chance" because I am just showing up and hoping she will see me. She is booked for two weeks they said. There is no other vet in the area that sees "exotic animals". I am fully aware of the obligation. You obviously did not understand my post.

He is refusing to open his mouth, even with me "coaching" him along. Any tips?

Our vet almost always sees us on the day we call, or the next morning. I go to their office and either wait in the waiting room or they set me up in a spare exam room where I wait until the vet can squeeze me in. Let us know what the vet says.

For mouth opening. Sometimes you can place your thumbnail between the front teeth of the mandible and maxilla and pull down gently on the bottom teeth and the cham will hold its mouth open. Another trick is to use a very small rubber spatula and work it between the teeth from the side of the mouth. One of our vets uses the curved rounded end of a paper clip to open the jaws of small reptiles. And then slides the paper clip into the mouth, across the jaws, and turns the paper clip to prop open the jaws. This works about the same as a speculum. Another way is to pull down on the gular, but this can leave bruising and it is my least favorite method with a recalcitrant cham.