Panther x Oustalet's hatching...

[BackwaterReptiles]

You may or may not recall that I bred my best breeder male Ambilobe Panther to my female Oustalet's who had never been bred before (or since, just in case this worked). She laid eggs shortly thereafter. They are both still doing very well--she is actually the most aggressive eater of all my chameleons.

I've hatched quite a few Oustalet's between then and now, maybe 100 or so, and have gotten to know them fairly well as a species. They're a wonderfully tough cham that gets little love in the pet market--I get orders for them very infrequently. I breed them purely for the enjoyment.

These "crossed" babies have some turquiose/green on them, something I hadn't seen on any of my prior Oustalet's x Oustalet's hatchlings, which was initially really exciting for me to see. However, after a quick disappointing Google search, you can find pictures of practically 100% green baby Oustalet's, so the turquoise/green I'm seeing in and of itself means nothing apparently.

It looks like there will be a 100% hatch rate so I'll try to raise them up and see how they look as they mature.

Anyhow, just thought I'd share.

Here's a picture of one of the babies...

And a closer shot...

For reference, this is what I usually hatch-out from oustaleti x oustaleti...

Thanks,
Sam

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Sam

This is interesting and not an everyday occurrence keep everyone posted.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[distortionz]

I literally just upped your previous thread last night because I have been wondering about this.. This is crazy/exciting keep us updated

 

[Craigwyatt]

I was thinking about trying the same thing. I was also thinking of trying a spiny chameleon panther cross too.
I'm so happy to see that I now know it's possible. Sam. Great job!!!!! You are my new hero. I not a jealous type person. But I'm going to admit it. IM JEALOUS!!! I hope they turn into giant colorful chameleons.
Well done. Congrats!!!

 

[nick barta]

OK, I gotta ask: Is this breeding of a Panther to an Oustalet's the "right" thing to do?

With all the concerns of crossbreeding Panther locals, this would be a step further wouldn't it?

I have no concrete opinion, but it is worth discussing.

CHEERS!

Nick

 

[bakednowningz]

That is, absolutely....... AMAZING. I never liked the Ousts too much because of their color, and the Panthers felt more on the medium side than the large.

I can't wait to see them full grown, they have to be absolutely gorgeous

 

[BackwaterReptiles]

Jeremy - Thanks, shall do!

Craigwyatt - I appreciate the kind words!

distortionz - Glad to hear you're interested!

bakednowningz - Haha much appreciated!

nick barta - I'd really rather this thread not take a negative dive, or get derailed in another direction--perhaps you could start another thread if you think it's important. This thread is intended to document the results, including long-term results if I can raise them up.

Will the babies survive?
What will the adults look like?
Will they be sterile?

The reason I started this project in the first place is because I read they cross-breed in the wild. There is plenty to learn from this experiment. These are not going up for sale on my website for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that there would be no demand for this cross.

Cordially,
Sam

 

[Chase]

Hey Sam-

What was the incubation length, and what temps did you use?

Chase

 

[BackwaterReptiles]

Hey Sam-

What was the incubation length, and what temps did you use?

Chase

Hi Chase,

The incubation period was seven months, twenty days. They all hatched within three days of each other (100%). I incubated at room temperature, no incubator. Temperatures were generally in the 75F-78F range during the day, with a slight drop at night.

Haven't lost any of them so far, several days into it.

Thanks,
Sam

 

[Chase]

Hi Chase,

The incubation period was seven months, twenty days. They all hatched within three days of each other (100%). I incubated at room temperature, no incubator. Temperatures were generally in the 75F-78F range during the day, with a slight drop at night.

Haven't lost any of them so far, several days into it.

Thanks,
Sam

Oh ok, cool. I will be waiting for updates

Chase

 

[nick barta]

Jeremy - Thanks, shall do!

Craigwyatt - I appreciate the kind words!

distortionz - Glad to hear you're interested!

bakednowningz - Haha much appreciated!

nick barta - I'd really rather this thread not take a negative dive, or get derailed in another direction--perhaps you could start another thread if you think it's important. This thread is intended to document the results, including long-term results if I can raise them up.

Will the babies survive?
What will the adults look like?
Will they be sterile?

The reason I started this project in the first place is because I read they cross-breed in the wild. There is plenty to learn from this experiment. These are not going up for sale on my website for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that there would be no demand for this cross.

Cordially,
Sam

Sam,

I didn't mean to derail your post, hopefully all goes well with your new chams. If someone wants to post separately about crossing they can,
I am not against or for it, just posed the question that some would have.

CHEERS!

Nick

 

[greenwitch7]

hatchlings

They (the cross) look way different to me. Of course I am a beginner, but all the same, are they the same age? The green looks much more robust to me. Do you have a photo of the normal from the side? Hope to follow their development. I don't ordinarily like the idea of crossing but this looks interesting. Good luck.

 

[bobcochran]

Hey Sam,
Are the neonates Panther size, oustie size, or in between? Is there much variation in there size after just hatching?

 

[Chris Anderson]

Very interesting. Will be interesting to see how they develop. I've seen some pretty interesting photos of adult F. oustaleti x F. pardalis hybrids. Look forward to tracking their progress!

Chris

 

[Chase]

Very interesting. Will be interesting to see how they develop. I've seen some pretty interesting photos of adult F. oustaleti x F. pardalis hybrids. Look forward to tracking their progress!

Chris

Where could I see these? I'm just interested in seeing adult pictures

Chase

 

[Maki]

That's pretty incredible. So, science nerd alert, I have a biology degree and remember the definition of a species as being a group of indeviduals with a common genetic background that can reproduce and have fertile offspring. Now, some may say that "in the wild" these two would never reproduce because they would never bump into each other... But. It could happen naturally.

If the babies do survive and are fertile then it's possible that these two "species" are actually much more closely related genetically then previously thought. Possibly subspecies?

Have you thought about what to cross them with, just one or the other? Or both?

Personally, I think that if they survive (which it sounds like they are healthy) and they can reproduce then they are adding genetic diversity to the population. As long as it's documented and not released back into the wild the only harm would be in mislabeling them. The new colors, behaviors, and inherited immunities they would have could only strengthen them.. Searching for "pure" traits in breeding too often leads to inbreeding.

If there was a major genetic problem they wouldn't have gotten this far. And if they are sterile, then they are a rarity indeed!

Enjoy!

 

[Chris Anderson]

Where could I see these? I'm just interested in seeing adult pictures

Chase

The photos were posted on Facebook by Alexander Kiselev. He included photos of the parents, the eggs, babies, and the offspring once they reached adulthood. Male looked like a male oustaleti with red legs, tail and speckling, a pale body with a bluish tint, and rostrals more similar to pardalis.

That's pretty incredible. So, science nerd alert, I have a biology degree and remember the definition of a species as being a group of indeviduals with a common genetic background that can reproduce and have fertile offspring. Now, some may say that "in the wild" these two would never reproduce because they would never bump into each other... But. It could happen naturally.

If the babies do survive and are fertile then it's possible that these two "species" are actually much more closely related genetically then previously thought. Possibly subspecies?

Have you thought about what to cross them with, just one or the other? Or both?

Personally, I think that if they survive (which it sounds like they are healthy) and they can reproduce then they are adding genetic diversity to the population. As long as it's documented and not released back into the wild the only harm would be in mislabeling them. The new colors, behaviors, and inherited immunities they would have could only strengthen them.. Searching for "pure" traits in breeding too often leads to inbreeding.

If there was a major genetic problem they wouldn't have gotten this far. And if they are sterile, then they are a rarity indeed!

Enjoy!

That species definition (the biological species concept) is one of many. Species concepts are very controversial and few work in all cases. There are numerous examples where different species, even from different genera, interbreed and create viable offspring. In some cases it is because the two species are very closely related, and in other cases, not.

As for strengthening the genetic diversity, that may or may not be the case. Hybrids between species can result in strong offspring, but can also result in weakened offspring. Weakened offspring generally don't survive to reproduce in the wild, but in captivity that is not always the case.

Chris

 

[BackwaterReptiles]

Hey Sam,
Are the neonates Panther size, oustie size, or in between? Is there much variation in there size after just hatching?

Hi Bob,

They're bigger than Panther babies, and some of them are growing as fast as any baby cham I've ever had. Still haven't lost any, which is a good sign. But, I've had baby Panther clutches hatch at 100%, not lose a single one for six weeks, then armageddon.

Very interesting. Will be interesting to see how they develop. I've seen some pretty interesting photos of adult F. oustaleti x F. pardalis hybrids. Look forward to tracking their progress!

Chris

Hi Chris,

Yes, it will be fascinating (I hope) to see how they develop. I'll try to take regular pictures and will post to this thread.

That's pretty incredible. So, science nerd alert, I have a biology degree and remember the definition of a species as being a group of indeviduals with a common genetic background that can reproduce and have fertile offspring. Now, some may say that "in the wild" these two would never reproduce because they would never bump into each other... But. It could happen naturally.

If the babies do survive and are fertile then it's possible that these two "species" are actually much more closely related genetically then previously thought. Possibly subspecies?

Have you thought about what to cross them with, just one or the other? Or both?

Personally, I think that if they survive (which it sounds like they are healthy) and they can reproduce then they are adding genetic diversity to the population. As long as it's documented and not released back into the wild the only harm would be in mislabeling them. The new colors, behaviors, and inherited immunities they would have could only strengthen them.. Searching for "pure" traits in breeding too often leads to inbreeding.

If there was a major genetic problem they wouldn't have gotten this far. And if they are sterile, then they are a rarity indeed!

Enjoy!

Hi there,

You know, I haven't formally checked to see if their ranges overlap naturally, but I sure wish I could remember which cham book/publication I was reading in which the author said that Panthers and Oustalet's crossed/hybridized in the wild. I feel like it was an older article, that is to say, 10-20 years old.

 

[manda615]

I think the babies look a bit different as well and I'm very excited to see the turnout at adulthood! I'd be pretty interested in owning one, thats for sure. I like both the Panther and Oustalet's quite a bit.

 

[BackwaterReptiles]

I thought I'd post a few pictures of some of the oustalet's x panther babies. There sure is a large variation in pattern and coloration. Perhaps some of the visible characteristics are dominant, and others are recessive?

The eggs were laid on February 8th of this year, 30 of them in all, and a couple more hatched today, so there's just one egg remaining and it looks like it'll hatch any day now.

I seem to always get a wide hatch window with pure Oustalet's--I had one egg hatch 30 days before the others once. Anyhow, should be a 100% hatch with the crosses. I've lost one of the chams, but that's it, so I'm pleased overall. They continue to grow at a nice clip.

Here is one of the more colorful of the crosses--really spectacular. If you notice the other cham in the top-left part of the picture, it's from the same clutch.

Here's another. Notice a complete lack of the usual Oustalet's white rings on its sides. But, if you look in the background, one if it's siblings does have a definitive whitish spot.

and here's yet another. Notice a vague, broken outline of the aforementioned oustalet's rings, yet they are dark, not white.