Providing insects with a mix of oxalates

[Andee]

Apparently insects naturally avoid high oxalate foods. Its a natural defensive mechanism that inhibits their growth when high enough. So if we give them a choice if the food is high enough to affect them they should naturally choose something low oxalate. However when does something become high enough to affect an insect like a tropical roach which lives in an area where sappy plants and high oxalate plants are likely their main food source?

 

[nightanole]

If you look at the list of moderate/high oxalate foods, it almost mirrors most peoples gut load

I dont think they naturally pick low oxalate foods. If anything they will choose things that are high in "bug poison" such as calcium.

 

[Andee]

This is just part of some of the research ive been doing (there isnt a lot of it so far that ive found, looking for more scientific papers only found like 4)

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44211898

Im not necessarily thinking of it as a forceful gutload but as a gutload to use over their lived to create a healthier insect over all, a stronger colony, and a colony that grows better. Which is why i didnt say gutload cause we use that as a food source for the cham. Thinking more about thw insects here long term for maybe breeders?

 

[Andee]

Insects can take a relatively high calcium peecentage long term as well as long as they are provided with other food sources and lots of inert foods as well i suppose. Kind of like... i have always raise my insects of a ratio to 3:1 calcium to phos. But they grew well. Low animak protein, high fiber, inert fresh foods with a dump of high gutload fresh foods for a small grouo day before feeding

 

[Andee]

I guess my question is when do things become... dangerous? Like... calcium is dangerous for everything at too high of levels. But oxalates seem more dangerous? When does inert become more important than gutload? I really feel we dont know enough about the digestive systems of insects and probably not enough about reptiles either. And i find it frustrating. We are just barely starting to understand the human digestive system and that is nothing like other mammalian digestive systems so why would it be anything like insects or reptiles?

 

[jamest0o0]

If you look at the list of moderate/high oxalate foods, it almost mirrors most peoples gut load

I dont think they naturally pick low oxalate foods. If anything they will choose things that are high in "bug poison" such as calcium.

This, honestly people don't know what TF they're talking about most of the time. It's just reposting the same things from people that they think know what they're talking about. We're all guilty of it at some point, not pointing fingers.

 

[Andee]

This, honestly people don't know what TF they're talking about most of the time. It's just reposting the same things from people that they think know what they're talking about. We're all guilty of it at some point, not pointing fingers.

I used to do it in the beginning too. But then I realized sometimes they are so different, things we do just don't make sense for the animals we feed. Etc. We rely a lot on mammal nutrition information but it doesn't make a lot of sense to do that. The reptiles and insects have a simpler gut system likely but also a completely different bacteria requirement in their gut biome.But look at the supplements they require too, like dogs and cats are pretty much useless when it comes to absorbing vit D from the sun but can consume all their D3 through food sources, but our reptiles have shown they can absorb it from the sun and also D3 from food sources. It's just different.

 

[kinyonga]

Food for thought...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1459329/
"larvae feeding on wild-type plants with abundant calcium oxalate crystals suffer significantly reduced growth and increased mortality."

 

[kinyonga]

You might find this interesting too..
https://www.kevinstock.io/health/health-dangers-of-oxalates/
"They can cause neurological symptoms which disturb sleep and adversely affect coordination, memory, learning, and concentration.
They cause pain via mast cell degranulation and histamine release.
Mysterious vulva pain, fibromyalgia, and carpal tunnel syndrome can all have oxalates causing or worsening the symptoms.
Increased calcium excretion and increased oxalic acid excretion ride hand-in-hand and are linked with osteoporosis.
Common practice for autism treatment is the elimination of oxalate-containing foods (as well as gluten, casein and soy).
Oxalates have even been implicit in breast cancer."

 

[Andee]

Thank you so much Kinyonga, finding papers has been like wading through mud. I want to be more informed as always, and I just know nutrition is the such an important root to health for everything.

 

[kinyonga]

I'll try to look for more later.

 

[jamest0o0]

@kinyonga interesting kin, never heard about carpal tunnel and all that. May be something to consider for my condition I told you about a while back. This also reminds me of a guy i heard one time saying(regarding humans, not reptiles) that the negatvies of vegetables outweigh the good, and all or most of the nutrients can be found from more easily digested animal products(basis for the carnivore diet I believe). Now this seems a little extreme, but I wonder if eating less fruits and veggies while just supplementing with their useful nutrients could be viable for a lot of people. Who knows, like andee said we still don't fully understand this stuff.

With animals... The point is, oxalates are in many fruits/veggies to some degree. And as a community we will condemn some and not realize they're plentiful in others. In most cases, the problem is with excess anything. Variety can't be stressed enough. Eating a spinach gutloaded bug once in a while is nothing to worry about... the concern is the people that hear something is healthy and feed it all the time. Also, things that are low in oxalates are usually high in something else you don't want(cruciferous veggies). So variety variety variety and you will be fine.