pamnsam94
Established Member
I've had good fortune in being able to observe the growth of 4 groups of captive hatched quads from 2 unrelated bloodlines and to see what effect different supplements and foods had on their growth. Although any conclusions drawn can be viewed as tentative, likely being modified as I acquire more data, the conclusions I've come to are partly based on my most recent experiences in trying to raise 37 babies. I'll try to summarize as much as possible and share a couple of conclusions I've come up with. If anyone wants any additional details, I'll do my best to provide any relevant info. For now, I'll just summarize the "results" from the first two groups.
First off, is group #1 from bloodline "A" consisting of 14 babies. The
main thing I want to point out with this group is that for the first 5 months or so, this group showed the most consistency (compared to the second group) in terms of overall growth. They started showing significant size differences after the 5 to 5 1/2 month mark. This coincided with the time period when I switched to cup-feeding dubia roaches and black soldier fly larvae. Prior to that time, most of the food they received was free-ranged. Switching to cup-feeding really seemed to slow their growth rate.
Since I had bad experiences using commercially fed crickets in the past, I avoided using them completely. Crickets are capable of storing D3 and/or preformed vitamin A for at least 2 weeks after eating a vitamin fortified cricket chow (many suppliers use such chows). In a study (John Annis), T. montium babies developed edemas when fed only non-supplemented crickets after the crickets were fed a diet free of the commercial chow for a period of two weeks.
The growth of this group was sub-optimal I believe primarily because they were not eating enough. Even though food was offered generously, I later found that the babies became bored, not only by the food items I was offering (a good selection by most people's standards) but by the delivery method too. Simply adding a new feeder (a single cricket within a feeding cup) or changing the delivery method (feeding by hand as opposed to cup-feeding) would immediately elicit a feeding response.
Lesson #1 learned: Although I will still use much caution when using commercially bred crickets, I will not avoid using them in the future, especially because they are the easiest feeder to free-range, thereby providing an overall greater quantity of food that is consummed, resulting in faster growth. Faster growth doesn't necessarily equate with "better" growth, but with this group of quads, I feel they should be bigger than they currently are. Update: Since I've implemented changes, they have shown better growth.
I would imagine that this first "lesson" is not even relevant to most people since most keepers rely heavily on crickets. While not much of an issue with non-montane species, many montanes are particularly sensitive to feeders that have been fed vitamin fortified (especially D3 and preformed A) chows.
The second group I've learned from is group #1 from bloodline "B" consisting of 8 babies. With this group, I used the Reptivite formula with preformed A but without D3. Interestingly, some in this group developed edema. The babies in group #1 from bloodline "A" were given feeders dusted with Repashy's Calcium Plus twice a month and they did not develop any sign of edemas whatsoever despite Calcium Plus having twice the amount of preformed A and despite the fact that Calcium Plus does have D3. I switched to Reptivite with this second group precisely because it had the preformed A that I wanted to provide but without the D3, something I wanted the chameleons to manufacture completely on their own though exposure to UVB lamps.
Although I will admit that I'm not 100% sure how often I gave the Reptivite, I want to say it was either 3 or 4 times during a one month period. The edemas probably were the result of too much preformed A in relation to D3.
While each group of quad babies was given access to UVB light (Mega-Ray mercury vapor lamps), the babies in each group, which were housed together, presumably had different exposure to those rays, possibly according to pecking order. Some most likely spend greater amounts of time closer to the UVB rays. When housing babies communally, I've come to another conclusion.
Lesson # 2 learned: When housing babies communally in tall enclosures, do not rely 100% on exposure to UVB lamps for all of a baby's D3 needs.
In the past, it would have been my preference to not use any powdered supplement containing D3, but seeing how I was able to provide at least some D3 through supplements (namely, Repashy's Calcium Plus) with the first group without causing edema, I feel a little amount of D3, especially when balanced with a "proper" amount of preformed A in the same formulation, is a good thing.
When I noticed the edemas in some of the babies, I immediately backed off of all supplements except pure calcium. Since that incident, all signs of edema have diminished. Interestingly this second group has shown significant differential growth rates (unlike the first group at the same age), presumably due to improper preformed A to D3 ratios.
In my opinion, most cases of edema reported are usually due to too much D3, so much caution is advised. However, at least with T. quadricornis babies, since I've been able to dust feeders twice a month with a supplement containing D3 and preformed A (Repashy's Calcium Plus) without causing edema, I feel that it is not only safe at that frequency, but probably beneficial when housing babies communally especially if all the babies do not have equal access to UVB rays.
Perry
First off, is group #1 from bloodline "A" consisting of 14 babies. The
main thing I want to point out with this group is that for the first 5 months or so, this group showed the most consistency (compared to the second group) in terms of overall growth. They started showing significant size differences after the 5 to 5 1/2 month mark. This coincided with the time period when I switched to cup-feeding dubia roaches and black soldier fly larvae. Prior to that time, most of the food they received was free-ranged. Switching to cup-feeding really seemed to slow their growth rate.
Since I had bad experiences using commercially fed crickets in the past, I avoided using them completely. Crickets are capable of storing D3 and/or preformed vitamin A for at least 2 weeks after eating a vitamin fortified cricket chow (many suppliers use such chows). In a study (John Annis), T. montium babies developed edemas when fed only non-supplemented crickets after the crickets were fed a diet free of the commercial chow for a period of two weeks.
The growth of this group was sub-optimal I believe primarily because they were not eating enough. Even though food was offered generously, I later found that the babies became bored, not only by the food items I was offering (a good selection by most people's standards) but by the delivery method too. Simply adding a new feeder (a single cricket within a feeding cup) or changing the delivery method (feeding by hand as opposed to cup-feeding) would immediately elicit a feeding response.
Lesson #1 learned: Although I will still use much caution when using commercially bred crickets, I will not avoid using them in the future, especially because they are the easiest feeder to free-range, thereby providing an overall greater quantity of food that is consummed, resulting in faster growth. Faster growth doesn't necessarily equate with "better" growth, but with this group of quads, I feel they should be bigger than they currently are. Update: Since I've implemented changes, they have shown better growth.
I would imagine that this first "lesson" is not even relevant to most people since most keepers rely heavily on crickets. While not much of an issue with non-montane species, many montanes are particularly sensitive to feeders that have been fed vitamin fortified (especially D3 and preformed A) chows.
The second group I've learned from is group #1 from bloodline "B" consisting of 8 babies. With this group, I used the Reptivite formula with preformed A but without D3. Interestingly, some in this group developed edema. The babies in group #1 from bloodline "A" were given feeders dusted with Repashy's Calcium Plus twice a month and they did not develop any sign of edemas whatsoever despite Calcium Plus having twice the amount of preformed A and despite the fact that Calcium Plus does have D3. I switched to Reptivite with this second group precisely because it had the preformed A that I wanted to provide but without the D3, something I wanted the chameleons to manufacture completely on their own though exposure to UVB lamps.
Although I will admit that I'm not 100% sure how often I gave the Reptivite, I want to say it was either 3 or 4 times during a one month period. The edemas probably were the result of too much preformed A in relation to D3.
While each group of quad babies was given access to UVB light (Mega-Ray mercury vapor lamps), the babies in each group, which were housed together, presumably had different exposure to those rays, possibly according to pecking order. Some most likely spend greater amounts of time closer to the UVB rays. When housing babies communally, I've come to another conclusion.
Lesson # 2 learned: When housing babies communally in tall enclosures, do not rely 100% on exposure to UVB lamps for all of a baby's D3 needs.
In the past, it would have been my preference to not use any powdered supplement containing D3, but seeing how I was able to provide at least some D3 through supplements (namely, Repashy's Calcium Plus) with the first group without causing edema, I feel a little amount of D3, especially when balanced with a "proper" amount of preformed A in the same formulation, is a good thing.
When I noticed the edemas in some of the babies, I immediately backed off of all supplements except pure calcium. Since that incident, all signs of edema have diminished. Interestingly this second group has shown significant differential growth rates (unlike the first group at the same age), presumably due to improper preformed A to D3 ratios.
In my opinion, most cases of edema reported are usually due to too much D3, so much caution is advised. However, at least with T. quadricornis babies, since I've been able to dust feeders twice a month with a supplement containing D3 and preformed A (Repashy's Calcium Plus) without causing edema, I feel that it is not only safe at that frequency, but probably beneficial when housing babies communally especially if all the babies do not have equal access to UVB rays.
Perry
